From Overheat?

bigfellla · 04-03-2008, 03:49 PM

Hello Marcuz and ceewi1

Firstly, I would like to apologise to oscaryu1, the administrators of this forum for my conduct, not my most proud posts to date. I still standby the intent of what I said, however I will say it in PM, or at least more constructively next time.

Anyway, ceewi41 thank you for your intelligent approach. You are correct in many ways; however here is my concerns/thinking.

When a PSU has multiple 12v rails you combine them to get a rough idea of the total available amps on the 12v rail, but it's not always a real accurate indicator of the 12v amp rating nor its suitability for the given task (e.g. HD3870X2). Most multi rail PSUs are actually fed from a single 12V source and split into smaller rated rails. Using the Alienware 750w as an example: It has four 18A +12v rails and a 16A rail that are fed by a single rail. I know what you're thinking... (3x18A)+ (1x16A) =70A. Well it doesn't quite work that way.

To determine the actual amp rating of the 12v rail you have to divide the total wattage available for the combined 12v rails (which is why I asked this question) by 12V. (Watts / Volts=Amps). But that’s not all that concerns me. The following is key imho.

Now the problem with multiple-rail PSU's (thus my suggestions to get a powerful single rail - and why most manufactures are moving away from them) is this. A large, single 12V rail (without a 240VA limit) can transfer 100% of the 12V output from the PSU to the computer, while a multi-rail 12V design has distribution losses of up to 30% of the power supply's rating. Those losses occur because power literally gets "trapped" on under-utilised rails. For example, if the 12V rail that powers the CPU is rated for 18A and the CPU only uses 7A, the remaining 11A is unusable, since it is isolated from the rest of the system.

Since the maximum current from any one 12V rail of a multiple-rail PSU is limited to 20A (240VA / 12 volts = 20 amps), PCs with high-performance components that draw over 20 amps from the same rail are subject to over-current shutdowns. With power requirements for multiple processors and graphics cards continuing to grow, the multiple-rail design, with its 240VA limit per rail, is basically obsolete. I guess my point here is that although this is not about over-current shut-downs, that PSU is bad quality imho, has low powered 12V rails and (at least anecdotally) the 12V rail seems to droop (I agree with your view about software monitoring of 12V not being accurate). This can (as you know) stress components causing excessive heat production.

Marcuz as I said in post 31, I think this is what you will need to do, test the PSU under load with a multimeter (cheap to buy), or borrow another quality PSU. I do feel that your issues will be resolved by getting a new quality (preferably single rail) PSU. I cannot be sure, because we need better information (i.e. measured voltages during load e.g. 3DMark06). I would suggest borrowing one from a friend if possible.

Marcuz · 04-03-2008, 11:28 PM

Would you give me a link what would I have to buy? I don't have a geek friend whoever know a lot about computer that I can borrow.

By the way, I forgot to let you know I am not sure if cause problem from PSU and video card, there is 2 plugs pin on video card, one is 6 pin other is 8 pin, so I plug in 6 pin to 6 pin other one is plug 6 pin to 8 pin. Do you think that is because cause the problem?

bigfellla · 04-03-2008, 11:37 PM

I can, but what i would prefer you to test first. If you cannot, look at the PSU Info link in my sig, there you will find several psu's in different categories, with links. I would suggest the TX750W from Corsair, because it has a single 60A 12V rail, and also becuase i have it and know it. It also has a 5 year warranty. But as i said, test first, but if not, look at the info in the link.

Marcuz · 04-04-2008, 05:08 AM

I am confused, but I am trying to learn about this. As I said, I am "noob." What do I have test first? I am sorry to make you waste your time to type a lot here, but I appreciate it. Thank you.

bigfellla · 04-04-2008, 05:52 PM

No you are fine.

In order to be 100% sure about the psu failing, you really either need to test the 12V rail will a multimeter to check it is reading withing 12V +/-5% normally, and 12V +/-10% under load, so that you can confirm that the PSU is providing the correct output. The alternative is to borrow a powerful, quality psu, which also will make sure that the required output is being met.

If you cannot do this, then there is an element of risk, that if you replace the PSU, it will not change anything, but i am pretty confident that this will not be the case.

The alienware website refers to your pc as having a "standard" psu, which isn't quite as specific as having a ATX PSU, which is a standard, specifying the outputs (as above) and the size etc. So in summary I would:

1. Purchase a multimeter (can be got cheap ie, 15 euro http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?...=25414&doy=4m4)

2. Test the PSU as shown here http://www.driverheaven.net/guides/testingPSU/ under load (ie when 3DMark06 is running) - please be careful!

.

OR

3. Borrow a quliaty single rail PSU 600W or greater.

If you find that in 2, the voltage on the 12V rail is less than 11.4V or 10.8 (under load) OR that a borrowed PSU (in 3) resolves the issue:

4. Confirm with Alienware that your case will fit a standard ATX PSU and then get a new PSU such as:

a. PC Power & Cooling 750 Watt: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817256017
b. Corsair TX750W : http://www.corsair.com/products/tx.aspx

Marcuz · 04-04-2008, 09:37 PM

Is this fine with that? or this?

bigfellla · 04-04-2008, 10:03 PM

The first one is fine mate. Do you know how to use it? If not, look here: http://www.ladyada.net/learn/metertut/voltage.html

Connect the multimeter to your system while it is powered down, for safety, and touch the chassis, to remove any static from your body beforehand. Then power it up, but make sure you have the multimeter set to DC in the right range (probably 20V DC). Then power up the computer, and fire up 3DMark06. Monitor the voltages. You really don't want it to go below 11.4, and definitely not below 11. Also monitor it during games and when idle and using prime95 here: http://files.extremeoverclocking.com/file.php?f=103.

Good luck, and let me know how you go, just follow the link about testing a PSU above (post 45), and you should be right.

Then can you take a photo of the inside of your case please, several if needed, to show the input and output (exhaust) fans and wiring.

Then post:

1. Voltages (max and min) during idle (just with desktop showing).
2. Voltages (max and min) during 3DMark06 running at the resolution you play your games at.
3. Voltages (max and min) during Prime95 running for 30 minutes.
4. Temperatures for the GPU and CPU during the above.
3. Pictures of your case (inside).
4. Confirm with Alienware your case will accommodate a standard ATX PSU.

cheers.

Marcuz · 04-05-2008, 04:39 AM

My case inside pictures are here

1.Case
2.Case
3.Case

My multimeter pictures are here

1. Multimeter
2. Multimeter

If you have AIM, then you can look up at my profile and my AIM screen name is there, so it would be more easier to talk better and fast than this forum.

bigfellla · 04-05-2008, 04:56 AM

I don't actually, just keep it in the post, that way everyone can chip in with advice if needed. Good pics, i was looking for airflow issues and dust, but that pc shouldn't overheat, nor does the temps you measured before indicate that it does. I am very confident about a new PSU being required here. Follow the rest of the instructions and post back.

Marcuz · 04-05-2008, 05:14 AM

Want me test on 20-pin motherboard plug or molex?

Ok I did test it here is:

Before without the game
1.Red= 507
2.Orange= 3.36
3.Yellow= 11.98

After with the game
1.Red= 5.06
2.Orange= 3.35
3.Yellow= 11.94

On Molex
1.Yellow 11.99~12.00

PRIME95 test here:
Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E4500 @ 2.20GHz
CPU speed: 2200.03 MHz
CPU features: RDTSC, CMOV, Prefetch, MMX, SSE, SSE2
L1 cache size: 32 KB
L2 cache size: 2048 KB
L1 cache line size: 64 bytes
L2 cache line size: 64 bytes
Prime95 32-bit version 24.14, RdtscTiming=1
Best time for 512K FFT length: 12.007 ms.
Best time for 640K FFT length: 15.946 ms.
Best time for 768K FFT length: 19.617 ms.
Best time for 896K FFT length: 23.356 ms.
Best time for 1024K FFT length: 26.891 ms.
Best time for 1280K FFT length: 33.031 ms.
Best time for 1536K FFT length: 40.287 ms.
Best time for 1792K FFT length: 48.352 ms.
Best time for 2048K FFT length: 53.501 ms.
Best time for 2560K FFT length: 70.007 ms.
Best time for 3072K FFT length: 87.669 ms.
Best time for 3584K FFT length: 104.421 ms.
Best time for 4096K FFT length: 123.599 ms.
Best time for 58 bit trial factors: 5.187 ms.
Best time for 59 bit trial factors: 5.078 ms.
Best time for 60 bit trial factors: 5.204 ms.
Best time for 61 bit trial factors: 5.166 ms.
Best time for 62 bit trial factors: 8.531 ms.
Best time for 63 bit trial factors: 8.278 ms.
Best time for 64 bit trial factors: 7.528 ms.
Best time for 65 bit trial factors: 7.567 ms.
Best time for 66 bit trial factors: 7.495 ms.
Best time for 67 bit trial factors: 7.530 ms.
[Sat Apr 05 01:16:51 2008]
Self-test 1024K passed!

04-03-2008, 03:49 PM	#41 (permalink)
bigfellla Silver Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 163	Hello Marcuz and ceewi1 Firstly, I would like to apologise to oscaryu1, the administrators of this forum for my conduct, not my most proud posts to date. I still standby the intent of what I said, however I will say it in PM, or at least more constructively next time. Anyway, ceewi41 thank you for your intelligent approach. You are correct in many ways; however here is my concerns/thinking. When a PSU has multiple 12v rails you combine them to get a rough idea of the total available amps on the 12v rail, but it's not always a real accurate indicator of the 12v amp rating nor its suitability for the given task (e.g. HD3870X2). Most multi rail PSUs are actually fed from a single 12V source and split into smaller rated rails. Using the Alienware 750w as an example: It has four 18A +12v rails and a 16A rail that are fed by a single rail. I know what you're thinking... (3x18A)+ (1x16A) =70A. Well it doesn't quite work that way. To determine the actual amp rating of the 12v rail you have to divide the total wattage available for the combined 12v rails (which is why I asked this question) by 12V. (Watts / Volts=Amps). But that’s not all that concerns me. The following is key imho. Now the problem with multiple-rail PSU's (thus my suggestions to get a powerful single rail - and why most manufactures are moving away from them) is this. A large, single 12V rail (without a 240VA limit) can transfer 100% of the 12V output from the PSU to the computer, while a multi-rail 12V design has distribution losses of up to 30% of the power supply's rating. Those losses occur because power literally gets "trapped" on under-utilised rails. For example, if the 12V rail that powers the CPU is rated for 18A and the CPU only uses 7A, the remaining 11A is unusable, since it is isolated from the rest of the system. Since the maximum current from any one 12V rail of a multiple-rail PSU is limited to 20A (240VA / 12 volts = 20 amps), PCs with high-performance components that draw over 20 amps from the same rail are subject to over-current shutdowns. With power requirements for multiple processors and graphics cards continuing to grow, the multiple-rail design, with its 240VA limit per rail, is basically obsolete. I guess my point here is that although this is not about over-current shut-downs, that PSU is bad quality imho, has low powered 12V rails and (at least anecdotally) the 12V rail seems to droop (I agree with your view about software monitoring of 12V not being accurate). This can (as you know) stress components causing excessive heat production. Marcuz as I said in post 31, I think this is what you will need to do, test the PSU under load with a multimeter (cheap to buy), or borrow another quality PSU. I do feel that your issues will be resolved by getting a new quality (preferably single rail) PSU. I cannot be sure, because we need better information (i.e. measured voltages during load e.g. 3DMark06). I would suggest borrowing one from a friend if possible. __________________ PC Wizard-VGA 2007 Charts-Power Supply Info-Multi/Single Rail PSU?-Speedfan-Laptop nVidia Drivers Intel (R) Core 2 Duo 3.0 GHz OC Zalman Cooler Gigabyte GA-965P-S3 with Northbridge Cooler 3GB Corsair DDR2 6400 OC 512MB BFG Technology 8800GT Sound Blaster X-Fi Fata1ity Platinum Series 64mb Corsair TX750W Last edited by bigfellla; 04-03-2008 at 07:09 PM.

04-03-2008, 11:28 PM	#42 (permalink)
Marcuz Bronze Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 79	Would you give me a link what would I have to buy? I don't have a geek friend whoever know a lot about computer that I can borrow. By the way, I forgot to let you know I am not sure if cause problem from PSU and video card, there is 2 plugs pin on video card, one is 6 pin other is 8 pin, so I plug in 6 pin to 6 pin other one is plug 6 pin to 8 pin. Do you think that is because cause the problem? __________________ Computer:Alienware Area-51 7500 OS:Windows Vista Home Premium CPU:Intel Core 2 Duo E4500 2.2GHz 800MHz (Soon upgrade) Ram:G.Skill 8GB Dual DDR2 SDRAM at 1066MHz GPU:Sapphire ATI HD3870 2x 1GB HDD:250GB 7200 RPM SATA Monitor:HP w2007 20.1" Speaker:Logitech Z-2300 200W RMS THX 2.1 Last edited by Marcuz; 04-03-2008 at 11:49 PM.

04-03-2008, 11:37 PM	#43 (permalink)
bigfellla Silver Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 163	I can, but what i would prefer you to test first. If you cannot, look at the PSU Info link in my sig, there you will find several psu's in different categories, with links. I would suggest the TX750W from Corsair, because it has a single 60A 12V rail, and also becuase i have it and know it. It also has a 5 year warranty. But as i said, test first, but if not, look at the info in the link. __________________ PC Wizard-VGA 2007 Charts-Power Supply Info-Multi/Single Rail PSU?-Speedfan-Laptop nVidia Drivers Intel (R) Core 2 Duo 3.0 GHz OC Zalman Cooler Gigabyte GA-965P-S3 with Northbridge Cooler 3GB Corsair DDR2 6400 OC 512MB BFG Technology 8800GT Sound Blaster X-Fi Fata1ity Platinum Series 64mb Corsair TX750W

04-04-2008, 05:08 AM	#44 (permalink)
Marcuz Bronze Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 79	I am confused, but I am trying to learn about this. As I said, I am "noob." What do I have test first? I am sorry to make you waste your time to type a lot here, but I appreciate it. Thank you. __________________ Computer:Alienware Area-51 7500 OS:Windows Vista Home Premium CPU:Intel Core 2 Duo E4500 2.2GHz 800MHz (Soon upgrade) Ram:G.Skill 8GB Dual DDR2 SDRAM at 1066MHz GPU:Sapphire ATI HD3870 2x 1GB HDD:250GB 7200 RPM SATA Monitor:HP w2007 20.1" Speaker:Logitech Z-2300 200W RMS THX 2.1

04-04-2008, 05:52 PM	#45 (permalink)
bigfellla Silver Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 163	No you are fine. In order to be 100% sure about the psu failing, you really either need to test the 12V rail will a multimeter to check it is reading withing 12V +/-5% normally, and 12V +/-10% under load, so that you can confirm that the PSU is providing the correct output. The alternative is to borrow a powerful, quality psu, which also will make sure that the required output is being met. If you cannot do this, then there is an element of risk, that if you replace the PSU, it will not change anything, but i am pretty confident that this will not be the case. The alienware website refers to your pc as having a "standard" psu, which isn't quite as specific as having a ATX PSU, which is a standard, specifying the outputs (as above) and the size etc. So in summary I would: 1. Purchase a multimeter (can be got cheap ie, 15 euro http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?...=25414&doy=4m4) 2. Test the PSU as shown here http://www.driverheaven.net/guides/testingPSU/ under load (ie when 3DMark06 is running) - please be careful! . OR 3. Borrow a quliaty single rail PSU 600W or greater. If you find that in 2, the voltage on the 12V rail is less than 11.4V or 10.8 (under load) OR that a borrowed PSU (in 3) resolves the issue: 4. Confirm with Alienware that your case will fit a standard ATX PSU and then get a new PSU such as: a. PC Power & Cooling 750 Watt: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817256017 b. Corsair TX750W : http://www.corsair.com/products/tx.aspx __________________ PC Wizard-VGA 2007 Charts-Power Supply Info-Multi/Single Rail PSU?-Speedfan-Laptop nVidia Drivers Intel (R) Core 2 Duo 3.0 GHz OC Zalman Cooler Gigabyte GA-965P-S3 with Northbridge Cooler 3GB Corsair DDR2 6400 OC 512MB BFG Technology 8800GT Sound Blaster X-Fi Fata1ity Platinum Series 64mb Corsair TX750W Last edited by bigfellla; 04-04-2008 at 06:03 PM.

04-04-2008, 09:37 PM	#46 (permalink)
Marcuz Bronze Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 79	Is this fine with that? or this? __________________ Computer:Alienware Area-51 7500 OS:Windows Vista Home Premium CPU:Intel Core 2 Duo E4500 2.2GHz 800MHz (Soon upgrade) Ram:G.Skill 8GB Dual DDR2 SDRAM at 1066MHz GPU:Sapphire ATI HD3870 2x 1GB HDD:250GB 7200 RPM SATA Monitor:HP w2007 20.1" Speaker:Logitech Z-2300 200W RMS THX 2.1 Last edited by Marcuz; 04-04-2008 at 09:43 PM.

04-04-2008, 10:03 PM	#47 (permalink)
bigfellla Silver Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 163	The first one is fine mate. Do you know how to use it? If not, look here: http://www.ladyada.net/learn/metertut/voltage.html Connect the multimeter to your system while it is powered down, for safety, and touch the chassis, to remove any static from your body beforehand. Then power it up, but make sure you have the multimeter set to DC in the right range (probably 20V DC). Then power up the computer, and fire up 3DMark06. Monitor the voltages. You really don't want it to go below 11.4, and definitely not below 11. Also monitor it during games and when idle and using prime95 here: http://files.extremeoverclocking.com/file.php?f=103. Good luck, and let me know how you go, just follow the link about testing a PSU above (post 45), and you should be right. Then can you take a photo of the inside of your case please, several if needed, to show the input and output (exhaust) fans and wiring. Then post: 1. Voltages (max and min) during idle (just with desktop showing). 2. Voltages (max and min) during 3DMark06 running at the resolution you play your games at. 3. Voltages (max and min) during Prime95 running for 30 minutes. 4. Temperatures for the GPU and CPU during the above. 3. Pictures of your case (inside). 4. Confirm with Alienware your case will accommodate a standard ATX PSU. cheers. __________________ PC Wizard-VGA 2007 Charts-Power Supply Info-Multi/Single Rail PSU?-Speedfan-Laptop nVidia Drivers Intel (R) Core 2 Duo 3.0 GHz OC Zalman Cooler Gigabyte GA-965P-S3 with Northbridge Cooler 3GB Corsair DDR2 6400 OC 512MB BFG Technology 8800GT Sound Blaster X-Fi Fata1ity Platinum Series 64mb Corsair TX750W Last edited by bigfellla; 04-04-2008 at 10:40 PM.

04-05-2008, 04:39 AM	#48 (permalink)
Marcuz Bronze Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 79	My case inside pictures are here 1.Case 2.Case 3.Case My multimeter pictures are here 1. Multimeter 2. Multimeter If you have AIM, then you can look up at my profile and my AIM screen name is there, so it would be more easier to talk better and fast than this forum. __________________ Computer:Alienware Area-51 7500 OS:Windows Vista Home Premium CPU:Intel Core 2 Duo E4500 2.2GHz 800MHz (Soon upgrade) Ram:G.Skill 8GB Dual DDR2 SDRAM at 1066MHz GPU:Sapphire ATI HD3870 2x 1GB HDD:250GB 7200 RPM SATA Monitor:HP w2007 20.1" Speaker:Logitech Z-2300 200W RMS THX 2.1 Last edited by Marcuz; 04-05-2008 at 04:45 AM.

04-05-2008, 04:56 AM	#49 (permalink)
bigfellla Silver Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 163	I don't actually, just keep it in the post, that way everyone can chip in with advice if needed. Good pics, i was looking for airflow issues and dust, but that pc shouldn't overheat, nor does the temps you measured before indicate that it does. I am very confident about a new PSU being required here. Follow the rest of the instructions and post back. __________________ PC Wizard-VGA 2007 Charts-Power Supply Info-Multi/Single Rail PSU?-Speedfan-Laptop nVidia Drivers Intel (R) Core 2 Duo 3.0 GHz OC Zalman Cooler Gigabyte GA-965P-S3 with Northbridge Cooler 3GB Corsair DDR2 6400 OC 512MB BFG Technology 8800GT Sound Blaster X-Fi Fata1ity Platinum Series 64mb Corsair TX750W

04-05-2008, 05:14 AM	#50 (permalink)
Marcuz Bronze Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 79	Want me test on 20-pin motherboard plug or molex? Ok I did test it here is: Before without the game 1.Red= 507 2.Orange= 3.36 3.Yellow= 11.98 After with the game 1.Red= 5.06 2.Orange= 3.35 3.Yellow= 11.94 On Molex 1.Yellow 11.99~12.00 PRIME95 test here: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E4500 @ 2.20GHz CPU speed: 2200.03 MHz CPU features: RDTSC, CMOV, Prefetch, MMX, SSE, SSE2 L1 cache size: 32 KB L2 cache size: 2048 KB L1 cache line size: 64 bytes L2 cache line size: 64 bytes Prime95 32-bit version 24.14, RdtscTiming=1 Best time for 512K FFT length: 12.007 ms. Best time for 640K FFT length: 15.946 ms. Best time for 768K FFT length: 19.617 ms. Best time for 896K FFT length: 23.356 ms. Best time for 1024K FFT length: 26.891 ms. Best time for 1280K FFT length: 33.031 ms. Best time for 1536K FFT length: 40.287 ms. Best time for 1792K FFT length: 48.352 ms. Best time for 2048K FFT length: 53.501 ms. Best time for 2560K FFT length: 70.007 ms. Best time for 3072K FFT length: 87.669 ms. Best time for 3584K FFT length: 104.421 ms. Best time for 4096K FFT length: 123.599 ms. Best time for 58 bit trial factors: 5.187 ms. Best time for 59 bit trial factors: 5.078 ms. Best time for 60 bit trial factors: 5.204 ms. Best time for 61 bit trial factors: 5.166 ms. Best time for 62 bit trial factors: 8.531 ms. Best time for 63 bit trial factors: 8.278 ms. Best time for 64 bit trial factors: 7.528 ms. Best time for 65 bit trial factors: 7.567 ms. Best time for 66 bit trial factors: 7.495 ms. Best time for 67 bit trial factors: 7.530 ms. [Sat Apr 05 01:16:51 2008] Self-test 1024K passed! __________________ Computer:Alienware Area-51 7500 OS:Windows Vista Home Premium CPU:Intel Core 2 Duo E4500 2.2GHz 800MHz (Soon upgrade) Ram:G.Skill 8GB Dual DDR2 SDRAM at 1066MHz GPU:Sapphire ATI HD3870 2x 1GB HDD:250GB 7200 RPM SATA Monitor:HP w2007 20.1" Speaker:Logitech Z-2300 200W RMS THX 2.1 Last edited by Marcuz; 04-05-2008 at 06:28 AM.

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