Yeti

I don't normally post non-computer related threads, but I was just curious - what does everyone think about the future of hydrogen as a possible alternative to hydrocarbon fuels? I know there is a lot of misinformation going around.

Cromewell

Well with claims of going coast to coast in canada on a single tank of hydrogen seem exagerated. The fuel cells now (of the ones I'm aware of) don't get anywhere near that. I think it's a good idea trying to use hydrogen because theres lots of it going around but I don't think it's going to fly too well, especially when ethanol works in the same engine.

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Lax

Off hand you know what the by-products of the ethanol are?

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Hello

Nothing, really never heard anything to be honest.

Yeti

Never heard of that... unless its a huge tank it won't compare to a normal gasoline car.
Yeah, thats another area where there's a lot of differing info/data going around... I really don't know what to believe about ethonol anymore.
Do you mean the production or the combustion?
Don't pay much attention to the news do you ? I guess I didn't either when I was your age. Long story short: oil supplies will run out sooner or later (Hubbard's peak is predicted within the decade) so alternative energy sources will be needed. Many people seem to think that hydrogen is the answer as it can either be combusted in a normal internal combustion engine or run through a fuel cell to produce electricity - both of which are essentially zero emission processes. President Bush has set aside a lot of money to fund research on hydrogen related technology.

Cromewell

It was in a GM Commercial here in Canada (at least in Southern Ontario) a few years ago.
I know in Brazil they flew a cessna fueled by only ethanol a fair distance, but the did say they could have gone further on conventional fuel.

The oil reserves are debatable, I don't think anyone knows how much is in the Oil Sands.

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Lax

About 50-70 years give or take. After that we need some more dinosaurs to decompose

By-products of the combustion of the ethanol (such as CO for gas)

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Yeti

Ethanol:
Being a hydrocarbon (its just ethane with a hydrogen removed and a –OH attached) it still will produce more or less the same emissions as gasoline. I don’t know if the combustion temperature is higher or lower which would affect the NOx production, but either way, the modern 3-way catalyst on cars makes emissions quite low as it is (carbon dioxide, of course, is not included in this). It has a lower heating value than gas so it will inevitably result in a lower fuel mileage. The reason it has been used as an additive to gasoline in the past is that since it has the OH group it acts as an oxidizer which helps reduce emissions in open loop systems, ie cars with carburetors. However, modern cars have advanced sensors and controls which render the additional ethanol useless and the end effect is lowering of gas mileage. The real argument that I still don’t know who to believe is that of how much energy goes into making ethanol. I’ve heard very optimistic people report that its is possible to make ethanol with about half of the heating value (ie get twice as much energy out as put in) and I’ve heard others report that it takes 1.5 times as much energy in as can be extracted. When you think about everything that goes into making ethanol from corn – planting, fertilizing, harvesting, distilling – all of which require fuel, its easy to see where discrepancies can arise.

Oil sands/oil shale/tar sands:
It would be nice if these were easily extracted considering the amounts that are known to exist. However, there is a point were it is not advantageous, in terms of energy or money, to mine a substance as a fuel. Even oil wells go through several stages of extraction before it is no longer beneficial to extract the remaining oil. Oil sand is quite heavy which makes it much harder to extract than crude oil, and must be extracted from the sand before being distilled (fairly energy intensive).

Depletion of oil:
There are many estimates of how long oil will last depending on if we will continue our exponential demand for energy and on how many new oil fields will be discovered. However, the crucial point is when the demand surpasses the supply, at which point prices will skyrocket and all hell will break loose . This point is predicted to be in the very near future.

Hello

I have heard of oil running out, not about the Hydrogen though. So it's just another topic, such as global warming.

thebeave

My biggest problem is it seems it would lack power. When they can show me a hydrogen engine that can pull a load of cars across the country or run a tractor to plow a field then I will be a little more supportive.

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