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View Poll Results: Do you support Bush?
Yes 22 40.74%
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Old 08-04-2005, 09:40 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by byteman
So, you apparantly agree with Lorand that the US is summarily evil?
good lord know, why do you jump to that conclution. I just said you didn't do something you claimed to do Anyway i think this thread has moved on from my gripe
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Old 08-04-2005, 10:14 PM   #152
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@APJ, those are some pretty harsh comments on America's role in WW2. Yes, we didnt get into the fight until 1941
practicaly 1942

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but for years before that we were playing minor support roles. We had the lend-lease program with the British with our planes and such.
in exchange for every baseable land mass we had

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Also, you have to keep in mind we were still at the tail end of the depression and the government was the exact opposite of what it is today.
It was war that ended your depression, your armies mobolisation to defend your borders and protect your nutrality pushed unemployement down to under 2% prior to your declaring war - thats no depression.
And you weren't alone in the depression during the late 1930's - the whole world was suffering due the to the special and intimate relationships that had been forged between the United States and European economies after World War I (on the back of which the US should have engaged)
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There was no such thing as income tax or sales tax. Those were all direct results of WW2.
Where did you mislearn that, the personal income tax in its present form was first levied by the US federal government in 1913.

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Back in that era, information and data took a long time to get from point A to point B, as im sure you know.
I think you are misunderstanding the technology of the age. The transatlantic cables had been in place for nearly 5 decades by that point

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The United States was not aware of Hitlers ultimate intentions until later in the war.
Don't be rediculous - the us was well aware of hitlers believe that the british would form as germany's ally, allowing her to control east and western europe in the hope that they would ally together againt the only remaining super power that would be left, the US - a fact eluded to in the letters between roosevelt and churchill
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As an example, and many people do not know this, but Adolph Hitler was Time magazines 1935 man of the year. Hitler was looked at in a positive light, generally speaking, by our government.
I did know that, and so he should have been, so were stalin and lenin and churchill
Hilter was a great leader, evil yes, but one of the most influencial men ever born.

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The fact still remains that we DID come, our men DID die, and it is debatable whether or not the outcome would have been the same without us.
The outcome would have been a lot sooner had you not waited so long. But yes the outcome is debatable

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I just dont think it is right to base your argument on a years fought/body count ratio.
Then what should it be based on ;P

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No person or country is perfect. Sure, America definately has some skeletons in her closet but the good our country has done for the world far outweighs our ancestors (and even current policy makers) bad decisions.
Only history will tell what good/bad america has had on the world, you've not been around all that long
But yes you have do some great things. As has britain

But lets be clear, it is in the past. I can be critical now, but i do not hold a grudge on anyone. Except france (joke lol )
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Old 08-04-2005, 10:18 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Professor
I don't get it.

Everyone complains all the time about how the US is "policing" the world and that we should stay out of their buisness and mind our own. Then the second we try to let people handle their own problems and stay out of a war or ignore governments that kill their own people, everyone complains that we just stood around and did nothing to help when things got sour.

What do people want from the US? We can't mind our own business and at the same time get involved in an as-needed basis. We tried that in WW2 and look what that got us. It just doesn't work.
Are you honestly trying to compare the current world climate and this small conflict on iraq, or afganistan to the situation pre the world wars
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Old 08-04-2005, 10:57 PM   #154
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Ok, I'm getting in on this a little late, but there are a few things that I need to say in response to what has been said here recently:

First, to you Lorand, I almost get the feeling like you absolutely hate Jews. They're not the only religion that has widely spread faith/following in the world. There are also the Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, etc., so why is it that their expansion is to conquer the world? If you are saying that religions try to take over the world, that's fine and that is true in a way, but to pick out Jews as ones that are, and that the others are not does not seem very fair. Just for the record, I do think that the US blindly helps Israel a little too much at times.

Furthermore, there are some basic things that are being neglected about the debate that has developed about the different roles/contributions in the World Wars... As for the late involvement in the second WW, there are a lot of factors for that. I beleive that the largest factor was the fact that in the first WW, America had lost A LOT of men just like the other countries did. The difference was that Americans at the time didn't feel that it was their fight to get involved in. Public opinion in 1935-1941 was still very much based upon this war that was only 20 years earlier. Additionally, that war was fought to help out our European allies, as there was little danger in the US being attacked in that war. The US was just one of the countless countries that had been brought in the war because Germany declared war on the little country of Serbia because someone assassinated a member of the German royal family. Additionally, WW II MIGHT not have even happened if it wasn't for the massive reparations that France and Britain forced Germany to repay. This paved the way for Hitler to have a country ripe for him to take, since he was Austrian and wasn't even from Germany... Anyway, the original point is that America needed a better reason to get involved in the second WW, and Roosevelt couldn't just declare war as had been done before due to public opinion. Therefore, that is why many people, myself included think that Roosevelt might have known about the attack on Pearl Harbor, and saw an opportunity to finally enter the war (anyone else find it convenient that the US carrier groups just HAPPENED to be out on a training excersize that day?).

As for the overall picture in WWII, yes it was AMAZING that the British held out that long in the face of the immense German and Italian war machine, thanks to what I would consider a close second best fighter in the war, the Spitfire (behind the Zero, not the Mustang ). However, I don't know that Europe would have been speaking German as much as Russian. I think that the Russian army would have crushed the German forces, much as they eventually did, and then also took over Britain. However, due to American involvement, Britain, France, Belgium and various other Western European countries were allowed to KEEP their government after the war was over, that would not have happened with the Russians. And don't forget that the Sherman tank was one massive advantage that the Allies had. It may have killed a few more troops than a better armored tank would have, but the sheer number and agility of these tanks helped turn the tide of the ground campaign. So, it's not much that US was the sole reason that the Allies won, but that there were the final missing piece, that helped give the Allies the upper hand. Which kept the world from speaking Russian, not German.

As for the American dream being the 3rd world's nightmare, well that could be said about the peoples subjugated under the British Empire, the Roman Empire and so forth. The only difference here is that this IS NOT an American Empire, if we wanted it to be France would be American controlled as well as Italy and various other countries. So I will accept that grossly overstated situation purely because as the world's only remaining superpower, America is bound to receive criticism from other nations. I am probably forgetting a lot of stuff, but I just wanted to clear up some historical and controversial things that have been said here...
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