Should I go from a PC to Mac?

tlarkin

VIP Member
Well for one, many businesses still use 802.11A for many reasons, one being they can control the amount of wireless clients, and it does have other benefits when you get into frequency and interference. 802.11A is far from obsolete either many places still use it.

To the person that tried to parallel old computers running win98 - I was pointing out old computers run an OS that is up to date. You don't see 5 to 6 year old computers running vista and it has to do with the business model.

i7s and Xeons are also not comparable, if so why are all servers still running xeon processors? This is not exclusive to apple, and again it goes for business model.

Speedy - I agree an SD card reader should come standard in a Mac and considering the cheap cost of them I don't understand why they don't.

I really fail to see what feature are impossible on a Mac Poh. please point me to your proof of argument and maybe you can change my mind on it.

You guys still don't get what I am even saying a lot of it has to do with the business model, it is like arguing the specs and features of say a honda civic versus a BMW, there is a reason there are huge price differences in those kinds of cars, and a lot of it has to do with the concept of how they are designed.
 

A Cheese Danish

New Member
To the person that tried to parallel old computers running win98 - I was pointing out old computers run an OS that is up to date. You don't see 5 to 6 year old computers running vista and it has to do with the business model.
First, I know many people using very old computers running windows 7 beta.
Vista is crap, I agree, and uses a ton of system resources. However, older computers also run great on XP.
And I wasn't running anything in parallel, I was telling the OP to do it.

You guys still don't get what I am even saying a lot of it has to do with the business model, it is like arguing the specs and features of say a honda civic versus a BMW, there is a reason there are huge price differences in those kinds of cars, and a lot of it has to do with the concept of how they are designed.

Business? I thought this was personal use?
 

brunoxyz

New Member
i7s and Xeons are also not comparable, if so why are all servers still running xeon processors? This is not exclusive to apple, and again it goes for business model.

I didn't say they were "compatible" I said that the latest xeons are actually i7 just a little different,.. and with a different name.

xeon is just a name, they use whatever technology they want and put it in there.
 

tlarkin

VIP Member
Cheese Danish -

I meant parallel in the literal sense, not in the software sense.

OK, I am just going to explain the business models and what you get when you buy or build a PC versus what you get when you buy a Mac.

The Apple Business model-

This is much like the Asian car business models. For years the Asian car market has slowly taken over US sales. This is because they are known to make a very reliable car. Sure you can get a Chevy with a V6 or V8 and it will have more horse power than say your 4 banger Honda Civic, however the cars are engineered different and you are getting a different product due to a different business model. One of the main reasons Asian cars are so successful at having a good reputation for being well built and long lasting is that when they design new models every year, they only are allowed to make a few major engineering changes. Everything else is only allowed to be tweaked. This allows for them to only make 2 or 3 major changes and work it in slowly and methodically reducing the amount of recalls and failures of their product.

Apple does almost the same thing. First off they keep it simple, they have three models of desktops and three models of laptops. 6 models total. Each model every new version gets upgraded but not overhauled and they keep the major engineering changes to a minimum. This allows for them to have more quality control over their product. Remember that Apple builds a system from the ground up. They design the OS and they design the hardware, which only a few companies do. IBM and SUN are the other two that come to mind. Everyone else, buys components from other companies and just assembles them, or they send their circuit board to design (like if they are a mobo company like Asus) to another company and have them make it.

So, Apple slowly builds quality systems that are engineered from the ground up. They factor in all kinds of features that are not needed per se, but come in handy. The ambient light sensor I thought was a joke, and that was until I traveled with my MBP on a plane. When the lights dimmed on the plane my keyboard lit up automatically and my screen adjusted brightness so I could see better.

Apple's overall business model is to keep it simple and keep the quality of the machine to a maximum. Efficiency does equate to performance and time and time again it proves to be more about efficiency sometimes over what the performance is. Do you want to spend 25 minutes drilling through sub menus to find one feature of an OS or an Application, or do you want it to be simple and just work?

Once you get out into the real world and stop using your computer for just games and start to do actual work, you will find the work flow on Macs very efficient, and they are engineered that way. They dump time, money, and research and development into this quality. I mean with Expose, Spaces, and a third party app called QuickSilver, I can navigate through my Mac at lightning speed and I can do like 5 tasks at work at the same time. I assign each desktop a task. Desktop 1 is email/web, Desktop 2 is remote desktop, server and remote utilities, Desktop 3 is for all my terminal sessions, and desktop 4 is my text editor and sticky notes. I know where everything is and I can multi task at a level of efficiency that I can not find in any other OS. The only thing that comes close is compiz-fusion since you can customize it the same way, but it is not as simple as OS X makes it.

So when you buy into the Apple business model that is what you are getting. That is how they run their company and that is the product they are selling which is worth what they sell them for. Many people won't appreciate that until they have to do heavy work on a Mac and they see the benefits. Some people switch and are hooked instantly, while others may never use the Mac to it's potential and just don't see the point. Part of it is definitely personal preference.

Now the Microsoft business model is different. Microsoft focuses on massive amounts of deployments. Wide ranges of compatibility with hardware, and with extensive legacy support. Apple does not really focus on legacy support as much as MS and with an MS product, it really is the only OS out there that has that much backwards compatibility. This is a good thing and a bad thing. Yes, it is good because it saves both consumers and businesses money, they don't have to buy a new copy of MS office to run on Vista, they can still use their 4 year old copy of MS office. That is great because it saves the consumer money. However, when MS is forced to keep legacy code in their OS to support legacy software it does cause a sort of software bloat, and a lot of times that causes a software performance hit.

Since MS has to develop for such a wide range of products they leave it up to their third party developers to use their SDKs and develop drivers and applications. This gives the consumer more choices like you all have pointed out, but this also allows for developers to make sloppy and crappy products. MS doesn't regulate it at all like Apple does. They say, here is the SDK make your product and pay us the money for the rights to make it a Windows product. It is kind of like the wild west so to speak. Until recently when MS did digital driver signing and stuff like that, but even then they charge companies for that and some companies don't want to pay MS the fee for that.

Then you have the PC companies that make PC parts or whole computers and their business model is to just assemble or provide parts for, the latest hardware/software. Which is nice because you typically get the newest tech, but sometimes that means you also are beta testing an actual retail part or product. I have had brand new pieces of hardware run like absolute crap until the driver got updated, or programs that are suppose to run but filled with tons of bugs. You get more choices but you get less quality control because Microsoft does not make computers, they just make an OS and they make their OS to a very broad range.

I am not saying you can't have or make a PC run fast, but I am saying the business model does not allow for it since it is hardly regulated. You run the risk of having your machine run great and then having an update crash it, or a new driver actually make it perform slower. This is because no PC or hardware company out there can possibly test every single configuration of hardware/OS out there in the PC world. There are just too many combinations and too many different models. Apple has 6 computers they make and sell, PCs have I don't even know what to guess here, 1,000s of combinations of models and builds?

I built my first PC when I was like 15 (back in 1995 to show how old I am) and then started working in IT at 18. I loved how you could build and customize a PC and I was a hardcore PC fan, and a gamer back then. I do not game as much as I used to. I got into Linux in the late 90s and at my first IT job we had to support Macs. I hated the classic OS on Apple, but since I worked on them I knew how it worked. Basically, long story short, our Apple guy quit and my boss says there is no such thing as an Apple guy anymore here in our department. Everyone is now both PC and Apple he said. So that is how I got into them. Then Apple went out and bought NEXT for their new OS and OS X came out. Over those years of supporting them and already having a Linux background somewhat I slowly started to find myself using the Mac platform more. It took me a good 5 years to actual learn that is Apple's business model. I also then realized it is hard to put a price on that. How do you justify buying a BMW over a Volkswagen? They have almost all the same parts, both hail from Germany, yet one costs double over the other, so how do you justify it? There are reasons too, BMWs do have a higher degree of engineering in them.

So, really when you buy a Mac you are getting more than just hardware and an OS. It is a whole package deal and that is Apple's business model for them. When you buy a PC you are getting pretty much diversity and buying power of choosing everything you want, but it is at your own risk and support may not be as good. That is their business model. Computers are more than just hardware specs when you get down into it. I have seen machines that ran dual processors and still ran like crap due to shotty software or bad drivers. The quality control is less because it is not regulated.

I do think that technology is getting better and some of these software problems are getting less and less, but then again sometimes developers get lazy and just put out a crap product. Even respected ones slip up sometimes.
 

bomberboysk

Active Member
Just to clarify, you do realize the xeon is literally identical to the core i7 right? Also, this has nothing to do with business models but the fact that apple just overcharges their consumers, apple and asian car manufacturers business models are totally different, apple sells an "exclusive" product by forcing you to use their hardware for their operating system, which i would compare not to a asian car market, but a luxury vehicle such as the bmw, bmw has some features that are only available on a bmw, therefore exclusive. This is the same way that apple is functioning upon, they want to make the most profits they can(of course, this is why they are a business) but in the end, do not care about the customer for the simple reasons they sell their product. How many people use bluetooth daily? Very few, the ambient light sensor, is that useless or utterly useless? And again how you were saying 5-6yr old computer can run the latest os, your forgetting the g5 powermac(released in 2003, but the highest upgraded models was sold until 2006), which is just under 3 years old for the latest ones. If they were upon this model you speak of, then snow leopard would supports those older ma....oh wait, no it doesnt, they screwed over the people who bought apple products just for that reason, they bought the top end apple product to futureproof from buying another one 2 years from then and believing it would run the latest os's, and what does apple do? Totally drop powerpc support in their latest release.
 

tlarkin

VIP Member
Just to clarify, you do realize the xeon is literally identical to the core i7 right? Also, this has nothing to do with business models but the fact that apple just overcharges their consumers, apple and asian car manufacturers business models are totally different, apple sells an "exclusive" product by forcing you to use their hardware for their operating system, which i would compare not to a asian car market, but a luxury vehicle such as the bmw, bmw has some features that are only available on a bmw, therefore exclusive. This is the same way that apple is functioning upon, they want to make the most profits they can(of course, this is why they are a business) but in the end, do not care about the customer for the simple reasons they sell their product. How many people use bluetooth daily? Very few, the ambient light sensor, is that useless or utterly useless? And again how you were saying 5-6yr old computer can run the latest os, your forgetting the g5 powermac(released in 2003, but the highest upgraded models was sold until 2006), which is just under 3 years old for the latest ones. If they were upon this model you speak of, then snow leopard would supports those older ma....oh wait, no it doesnt, they screwed over the people who bought apple products just for that reason, they bought the top end apple product to futureproof from buying another one 2 years from then and believing it would run the latest os's, and what does apple do? Totally drop powerpc support in their latest release.

You don't understand what I am saying and I can't make you understand it. It is a business model and they do have tons of features PCs don't. It is an all in one package including software.

Snow Leopard is dropping legacy PPC support because the translation software runs like butt. Rosetta apps don't run that well on Intel machines, and it is because the APIs for all the architecture are completely different. They are dropping it and it will shave off over 4gigs of library files from an OS install, making it yet more stream lined. I mentioned this earlier in their business model, Apple does not have a long standing history with lots of legacy support. Apps that worked in 10.2 most likely won't work in 10.5, because when they upgrade the code they optimize it for the hardware it is and they update everything across the board. I am honestly surprised they kept PPC support this long. They dropped OS 9 support (or classic mode) several years ago too.

You obviously don't comprehend what I am saying about their hardware buisness model, it is just like the Asian car business model. They never make more than a few major engineering changes each model. They keep it simple, 6 total computers, 3 models of desktops and 3 models of laptops, and then each model generally has entry level and higher grade with different price tiers. Just like cars do. Asian cars will have the GX, the GXL and the GXE of all the same freaking car model. I have a Nissan Altima (which I really don't like but got a good price on it) and mine is the GXE, and there is also the GX and the GXL of the same car, the only difference is a few features.

Then again I don't know why I am wasting my time arguing with a 15 year old on the internet.
 

A Cheese Danish

New Member
You don't understand what I am saying and I can't make you understand it. It is a business model and they do have tons of features PCs don't. It is an all in one package including software.
Which, the majority of the stuff on a mac, isn't used by a basic home user.

You obviously don't comprehend what I am saying about their hardware buisness model, it is just like the Asian car business model. They never make more than a few major engineering changes each model. They keep it simple, 6 total computers, 3 models of desktops and 3 models of laptops, and then each model generally has entry level and higher grade with different price tiers. Just like cars do. Asian cars will have the GX, the GXL and the GXE of all the same freaking car model. I have a Nissan Altima (which I really don't like but got a good price on it) and mine is the GXE, and there is also the GX and the GXL of the same car, the only difference is a few features.
American cars have that as well mate. Same with European vehicles. And you don't comprehend the fact that
you can throw Mac OSX on a hard drive in a custom built machine.

Then again I don't know why I am wasting my time arguing with a 15 year old on the internet.
No offense, but it is because you are a mac user.

So let us all stop arguing about hardware, and just let this guy install Mac OSX on his rig if he hates vista.
 

tlarkin

VIP Member
Which, the majority of the stuff on a mac, isn't used by a basic home user.

You'd be surprised. If things like Automator weren't in demand of the Mac user groups then it wouldn't exist. The iLife suite is used very much so, and people who have never in their life loaded and edited film and then authored it to a DVD are. Heck my older Uncle is doing that right now with old video tapes of family events and the guy never owned a computer over half his life.



American cars have that as well mate. Same with European vehicles. And you don't comprehend the fact that
you can throw Mac OSX on a hard drive in a custom built machine.

The American car business has emulated the Asian car business. However, the main point is, the Asian cars don't make major engineering changes each new model. They only make a few, so there is less chances of conflicts and bugs in the system. They don't just toss in the newest technology in there and try to make it work. They slowly build a good solid product.

No offense, but it is because you are a mac user.

I am also a Windows and Linux user too, so that doesn't really apply to stereotype me. I even have used straight Unix in the past as well. I use my PC almost as much as my Macs.

So let us all stop arguing about hardware, and just let this guy install Mac OSX on his rig if he hates vista.

This is a debate not an argument.:D
 

gamerman4

Active Member
This is a debate not an argument.:D

A debate is an argument.

If this were a debate club I think tlarkin would be the only one picked for the team because you all suck at debating. I refuse to get into any more of these because they always end up taking too much time, though I do enjoy watching tlarkin fail to realize that most of the people here that hate macs are thick headed and won't listen to his arguments.

Here ya go guys, I'll help ya out:

20" iMac
Base Price (no software included)
$1199

spec for spec
Viewsonic VLED $430 (LED LCD, its 22" because I couldnt find a 20")
http://www.buy.com/prod/viewsonic-v...0-1-dc-5ms-1680x1050/q/loc/101/206887574.html
Kingston 2GB - $31
Seagate 320GB HDD - $55
keyboard/mouse - $20
Intel E8400 (imac uses e8200 but its not at newegg) - $168
Lian Li case - ~$90
Gigagbyte D3P (has 2xFW and 8xUSB:eek:) - $130
PCP&C PSU - ~$100
9400GT - $40
Linksys ABGN wifi card - $60
DVD/CD burner - ~$25
D-Link Bluetooth adapter - $20
Total - $1169

Amazing huh? the same damn price. The PC is a bit faster because of the slightly better CPU. The bigger screen still has the same res so it doesn't really matter. I used parts from well known brands, not cheap crappy ones. You could make a cheaper PC spec for spec if you used all generic no name parts but I wanted a level playing field, if I am to believe Apple uses good parts, I will use good parts. The 9400GT beats out the 9400M but they both suck regardless. Anyways, even though the PC is a little better at a smaller price, you have to think, the iMac is an all-in-one, that is a pretty hard thing to do since the smaller you get, often the more expensive your cases get. An all-in-one configuration would bring that price over $1200. Yeah, I'm defending Mac, but I dislike the OS, not the machine. The machine is fine.

Now stop bitching.
 
Last edited:

Droogie

New Member
A debate is an argument.

If this were a debate club I think tlarkin would be the only one picked for the team because you all suck at debating. I refuse to get into any more of these because they always end up taking too much time, though I do enjoy watching tlarkin fail to realize that most of the people here that hate macs are thick headed and won't listen to his arguments.

Here ya go guys, I'll help ya out:

20" iMac
Base Price (no software included)
$1199

spec for spec
Viewsonic VLED $430 (LED LCD, its 22" because I couldnt find a 20")
http://www.buy.com/prod/viewsonic-v...0-1-dc-5ms-1680x1050/q/loc/101/206887574.html
Kingston 2GB - $31
Seagate 320GB HDD - $55
keyboard/mouse - $20
Intel E8400 (imac uses e8200 but its not at newegg) - $168
Lian Li case - ~$90
Gigagbyte D3P (has 2xFW and 8xUSB:eek:) - $130
PCP&C PSU - ~$100
9400GT - $40
Linksys ABGN wifi card - $60
DVD/CD burner - ~$25
D-Link Bluetooth adapter - $20
Total - $1169

Amazing huh? the same damn price. The PC is a bit faster because of the slightly better CPU. The bigger screen still has the same res so it doesn't really matter. I used parts from well known brands, not cheap crappy ones. You could make a cheaper PC spec for spec if you used all generic no name parts but I wanted a level playing field, if I am to believe Apple uses good parts, I will use good parts. The 9400GT beats out the 9400M but they both suck regardless. Anyways, even though the PC is a little better at a smaller price, you have to think, the iMac is an all-in-one, that is a pretty hard thing to do since the smaller you get, often the more expensive your cases get. An all-in-one configuration would bring that price over $1200. Yeah, I'm defending Mac, but I dislike the OS, not the machine. The machine is fine.

Now stop bitching.

my argument was against prebuilts in general, not mac or mac osx. i built an i7 rig for $1,400 plus add $300 dollars to accommodate for the macs bells and whistles. the iMac i was comparing it too was $400 more (if you include the OS for the i7 build), and was not nearly as good as the pc spec for spec.
 

bomberboysk

Active Member
You don't understand what I am saying and I can't make you understand it. It is a business model and they do have tons of features PCs don't. It is an all in one package including software.

Snow Leopard is dropping legacy PPC support because the translation software runs like butt. Rosetta apps don't run that well on Intel machines, and it is because the APIs for all the architecture are completely different. They are dropping it and it will shave off over 4gigs of library files from an OS install, making it yet more stream lined. I mentioned this earlier in their business model, Apple does not have a long standing history with lots of legacy support. Apps that worked in 10.2 most likely won't work in 10.5, because when they upgrade the code they optimize it for the hardware it is and they update everything across the board. I am honestly surprised they kept PPC support this long. They dropped OS 9 support (or classic mode) several years ago too.

You obviously don't comprehend what I am saying about their hardware buisness model, it is just like the Asian car business model. They never make more than a few major engineering changes each model. They keep it simple, 6 total computers, 3 models of desktops and 3 models of laptops, and then each model generally has entry level and higher grade with different price tiers. Just like cars do. Asian cars will have the GX, the GXL and the GXE of all the same freaking car model. I have a Nissan Altima (which I really don't like but got a good price on it) and mine is the GXE, and there is also the GX and the GXL of the same car, the only difference is a few features.

Then again I don't know why I am wasting my time arguing with a 15 year old on the internet.

How is that any different than the business model of american car companies? For example, with ford they also have multiple editions of the tauras, the actual altima is the same with different OPTIONS. Now when you say macs are "stable", that is why, as there are few options available to the end yuser. If you dont need bluetooth, why are you paying for something you would never use. This has nothing to do with age either, i understand plenty about business as i pretty much run the back end of my dads business, and have attempted to start my own business before(but have failed since you need money to make money). This is what i hate when you argue with an apple user, is that to them apple is god and anything you say about them they have to try to prove the opposite.
 

tlarkin

VIP Member
A debate is an argument.

If this were a debate club I think tlarkin would be the only one picked for the team because you all suck at debating. I refuse to get into any more of these because they always end up taking too much time, though I do enjoy watching tlarkin fail to realize that most of the people here that hate macs are thick headed and won't listen to his arguments.

Here ya go guys, I'll help ya out:

20" iMac
Base Price (no software included)
$1199

spec for spec
Viewsonic VLED $430 (LED LCD, its 22" because I couldnt find a 20")
http://www.buy.com/prod/viewsonic-v...0-1-dc-5ms-1680x1050/q/loc/101/206887574.html
Kingston 2GB - $31
Seagate 320GB HDD - $55
keyboard/mouse - $20
Intel E8400 (imac uses e8200 but its not at newegg) - $168
Lian Li case - ~$90
Gigagbyte D3P (has 2xFW and 8xUSB:eek:) - $130
PCP&C PSU - ~$100
9400GT - $40
Linksys ABGN wifi card - $60
DVD/CD burner - ~$25
D-Link Bluetooth adapter - $20
Total - $1169

Amazing huh? the same damn price. The PC is a bit faster because of the slightly better CPU. The bigger screen still has the same res so it doesn't really matter. I used parts from well known brands, not cheap crappy ones. You could make a cheaper PC spec for spec if you used all generic no name parts but I wanted a level playing field, if I am to believe Apple uses good parts, I will use good parts. The 9400GT beats out the 9400M but they both suck regardless. Anyways, even though the PC is a little better at a smaller price, you have to think, the iMac is an all-in-one, that is a pretty hard thing to do since the smaller you get, often the more expensive your cases get. An all-in-one configuration would bring that price over $1200. Yeah, I'm defending Mac, but I dislike the OS, not the machine. The machine is fine.

Now stop bitching.

Oh no I do definitely realize it because I used to think the same exact way years ago. Until on one of the Mac forums I am on someone challenged me to make a PC spec for spec to a Mac and compare the prices. I was proved wrong, admitted defeat and it changed my outlook on the over all costs of Macs.

Next I started to look at the business models of Macs versus PCs and then I saw all the little differences in the business model which make them separate products.

I have friends that are my age and work in some sort of IT (web dev, app dev, networking and support, etc) and many of them are such hardcore Mac haters, and I have no idea why (because really they are just a computer) that refuse to realize such things.

I am not an Apple fan boy nor do I drink the Apple kool-aid, and I can sit here and list off all the problems with Apple products, but I can do the same about Linux and Windows, and PC hardware as well.

If these things were perfect and never broke I wouldn't have a freaking job, because really that is what I am in a sorts. I am a technology custodian cleaning up messes that technology causes after they break.

To say that a Mac is a rip off is false, because they are very competitively priced for what you get. Apple's business model also allows every level of user access to robust features. One example I gave earlier is automator, which is basically the most dumbed down way to applescript (write macros) to automate processes. You simply hit a record button and it records your actions, you then save it as a task and can schedule it through an easy interface. Your average user is starting to use things like that. iLife makes it easy to manage photos, edit movies, author DVDs and build webpages because it does in fact just work. These aren't to be confused with being a professional, which Apple also has a professional line of products that go along for the higher end power user.

They are an all in one solution from ground zero, from the basic user to the most advanced user. Like I said earlier, a lot of it is "personal preference," and a lot of people who are elitist (on all sides) never fully try out the platform either to get a full experience.

I am sorry but you can't learn the full ins and outs of an OS in under a year. I have been using Linux for almost 10 years now and I still learn stuff from time to time that I did not know existed, or maybe a new feature that was implemented say 2 versions ago that I just didn't ever notice. To fully understand a Mac or a PC you need to use it a lot, break it a lot, and then try to fix it yourself a lot. That is how you learn. Until you do that, a lot of the opinions or thoughts you put out about any platform will have a bias to it. Of course you are always entitled to your own opinion.
 

Droogie

New Member
Oh no I do definitely realize it because I used to think the same exact way years ago. Until on one of the Mac forums I am on someone challenged me to make a PC spec for spec to a Mac and compare the prices. I was proved wrong, admitted defeat and it changed my outlook on the over all costs of Macs.

but i did build a PC that had considerably better specs and was still cheaper. and that was after i added on $300 to accommodate for all the features an iMac comes with. $300 was just a random number, maybe its more, maybe its less.

i don't argue that apple doesn't make a good product, i'm just saying today you can easily build a pc with better specs and for less. not just less than a mac, less than any prebuilt (hp, dell, etc.)

i agree though, you can't make a judgment about the OS without having used it for long enough. i have no opinion on mac osx, because i have hardly touched it. and i probably do have a bias towards PC's, because they're all i've known. i would love to have a mac to mess around with the os, but at those prices i'd rather go through all the work of installing hackintosh on a PC.
 

tlarkin

VIP Member
How is that any different than the business model of american car companies? For example, with ford they also have multiple editions of the tauras, the actual altima is the same with different OPTIONS. Now when you say macs are "stable", that is why, as there are few options available to the end yuser. If you dont need bluetooth, why are you paying for something you would never use. This has nothing to do with age either, i understand plenty about business as i pretty much run the back end of my dads business, and have attempted to start my own business before(but have failed since you need money to make money). This is what i hate when you argue with an apple user, is that to them apple is god and anything you say about them they have to try to prove the opposite.

If you know so much about business models you would clearly parallel how an Asian car maker won't make more than 2 or 3 major engineering changes per a model. Just like how Apple doesn't make a major engineering change from their early 2009 model to their late 2009 model for example.

When car companies make major overhauls on electrical or mechanical design they have a higher risk of failure which is why they give you that factory warranty, just like any other piece of technology. The American car companies over the last 15 years have had to change their business models completely to compete with the growing Asian car market. You don't see Honda redesigning their whole electrical system in a car, or say, modifying the engine to have two headers over it instead of one, or anything else like that. Then they keep the core technologies the same, spark plugs, O2 sensors, distributors and so forth. They slowly build a reliable product and are always improving it.

That doesn't mean Apple is with out fault. I am pointing out the business models, and they keep it simple, only have 6 total computers you can buy from and then have tiers of those models from entry to medium to higher end.

Maybe you should ask your dad what he thinks about the business models since he runs his own business. I ran my own business for several years as a sub contractor, filed my own 1099 for taxes and everything, wrote off expenses and all that jazz. I dealt with two major IT contracting companies and I would invoice them all the time with my hours after billing their clients for my time. Since I was a sub contractor I was not employed by those companies, I was doing work that no one on their staff could do or perhaps the extra work they couldn't get to.

The fact remains that Apple just has a different business model than Microsoft or any other PC manufacturer out there, including the parts vendors. You are buying a product based on their business model.

If you can't get that through your head then there is no way you are going to understand anything I have said, thus making this conversation moot.
 

tlarkin

VIP Member
but i did build a PC that had considerably better specs and was still cheaper. and that was after i added on $300 to accommodate for all the features an iMac comes with. $300 was just a random number, maybe its more, maybe its less.

i don't argue that apple doesn't make a good product, i'm just saying today you can easily build a pc with better specs and for less. not just less than a mac, less than any prebuilt (hp, dell, etc.)

i agree though, you can't make a judgment about the OS without having used it for long enough. i have no opinion on mac osx, because i have hardly touched it. and i probably do have a bias towards PC's, because they're all i've known. i would love to have a mac to mess around with the os, but at those prices i'd rather go through all the work of installing hackintosh on a PC.

Was in an all-in-one? Did it take up the same amount of space? Did it have all the features?

I mean if you really wanted to compare a custom built PC versus a Mac desktop Apple would have to make a mid tower Core2Quad or i7 desktop for it to really be 100% comparable. In reality you can only really compare the iMac to the PC all-in-ones that are also out there, and the iMac trumps all of them in specs, features and price typically.

I also understand your point of view too since I built a new PC last fall for about $1400 including a 22" LCD monitor as well and I love it. It plays all the games at the highest settings no problem. It even ran Crysis at higher levels. It does have better specs than my iMac at work, but it is not like I can compare a desktop to an all-in-one product.

I do wish Apple made a midtower desktop instead of just the Mac Pro, which is overkill for almost any average user.
 

Droogie

New Member
Was in an all-in-one? Did it take up the same amount of space? Did it have all the features?

I mean if you really wanted to compare a custom built PC versus a Mac desktop Apple would have to make a mid tower Core2Quad or i7 desktop for it to really be 100% comparable. In reality you can only really compare the iMac to the PC all-in-ones that are also out there, and the iMac trumps all of them in specs, features and price typically.

I also understand your point of view too since I built a new PC last fall for about $1400 including a 22" LCD monitor as well and I love it. It plays all the games at the highest settings no problem. It even ran Crysis at higher levels. It does have better specs than my iMac at work, but it is not like I can compare a desktop to an all-in-one product.

I do wish Apple made a midtower desktop instead of just the Mac Pro, which is overkill for almost any average user.

well no of course it wasn't all in one, i tried to match the features by adding $300 to the PC's cost, and it obviously takes up a lot more space.

the simplicity (i don't mean this negatively) of the iMac's, the fact that they're so small, portable, and compact is awesome. but it doesn't come without sacrificing customization.

on the other hand custom PC's are bulky, not portable, and require more maintenance (from what i hear) than mac's. BUT this means more customization, and more options. to an average user this may be a turn off. my own personal opinion: i could care less how big or bulky it is, i love cracking open the case and messing around with stuff in there. i have not had any problems thus far with maintenance.

i think this is typically why power users choose to build a custom PC, solely because of the customization options.

but you're right, it's hard to compare they too. they both specialize in different areas. it is all a matter of personal preference. i have nothing against mac, and like i said, if money wasn't an issue, i'd definitely have one.
 

tlarkin

VIP Member
well no of course it wasn't all in one, i tried to match the features by adding $300 to the PC's cost, and it obviously takes up a lot more space.

the simplicity (i don't mean this negatively) of the iMac's, the fact that they're so small, portable, and compact is awesome. but it doesn't come without sacrificing customization.

on the other hand custom PC's are bulky, not portable, and require more maintenance (from what i hear) than mac's. BUT this means more customization, and more options. to an average user this may be a turn off. my own personal opinion: i could care less how big or bulky it is, i love cracking open the case and messing around with stuff in there. i have not had any problems thus far with maintenance.

i think this is typically why power users choose to build a custom PC, solely because of the customization options.

but you're right, it's hard to compare they too. they both specialize in different areas. it is all a matter of personal preference. i have nothing against mac, and like i said, if money wasn't an issue, i'd definitely have one.

Well size can be a feature. iMacs also only take one power plug, which is actually very nice. We have some old offices at my work where the buildings are super old and they don't have a lot of power outlets. We deployed iMacs there because they only take one power plug, and we loaded Windows XP on all of them. They actually don't run OS X. We also have several hundred Mac minis that are mounted behind big screen TVs which also run Windows, see this for reference:

http://tlarkin.com/blog/new-way-use-mac-mini

We actually mounted those on the back of big screen TVs and they run permanent media and presentations on the TVs for people as displays. They also all run Windows on them. That is because the user base we deploy these to actually run applications that are in Windows and we don't want to spend a ton of money paying for the Mac equivalent software and since we already own a site license to Windows XP and licenses to the apps they use for that stuff, we simply image them with windows on them.

A lot of times size and weight is considered a feature. While, it may be a niche feature, it is still a feature and a benefit. Just like a lot of gaming rigs people build since video games on PCs are actually a niche market. Most people buy basic PCs and most of them do basic things.

So even the enthusiast that likes large cases and likes to customize their hardware is still a niche market, while Apple is wanting to build a product for the masses.

You can also customize add any hardware for any Mac, just a lot of times you are going to use external devices, which is why Apple is so big on Firewire.
 

bomberboysk

Active Member
If you know so much about business models you would clearly parallel how an Asian car maker won't make more than 2 or 3 major engineering changes per a model. Just like how Apple doesn't make a major engineering change from their early 2009 model to their late 2009 model for example.

When car companies make major overhauls on electrical or mechanical design they have a higher risk of failure which is why they give you that factory warranty, just like any other piece of technology. The American car companies over the last 15 years have had to change their business models completely to compete with the growing Asian car market. You don't see Honda redesigning their whole electrical system in a car, or say, modifying the engine to have two headers over it instead of one, or anything else like that. Then they keep the core technologies the same, spark plugs, O2 sensors, distributors and so forth. They slowly build a reliable product and are always improving it.

That doesn't mean Apple is with out fault. I am pointing out the business models, and they keep it simple, only have 6 total computers you can buy from and then have tiers of those models from entry to medium to higher end.

Maybe you should ask your dad what he thinks about the business models since he runs his own business. I ran my own business for several years as a sub contractor, filed my own 1099 for taxes and everything, wrote off expenses and all that jazz. I dealt with two major IT contracting companies and I would invoice them all the time with my hours after billing their clients for my time. Since I was a sub contractor I was not employed by those companies, I was doing work that no one on their staff could do or perhaps the extra work they couldn't get to.

The fact remains that Apple just has a different business model than Microsoft or any other PC manufacturer out there, including the parts vendors. You are buying a product based on their business model.

If you can't get that through your head then there is no way you are going to understand anything I have said, thus making this conversation moot.
Again, what i was trying to say is all car manufacturers operate like this, there are no actual engineering changes between many of the cars, and in fact what the major differences between "submodels" is the options, such as satelite radio vs am/fm, or an automatic instead of standard transimission. But you put forth a good point there.

As for business, it is somewhat different when you are talking business models, as my dad does pretty much nothing except the actual "selling" of the product to grocery stores(salsa), and its a side business as he holds a full time job also. I pretty much run all the back end stuff such as accounts, invoices, the online advertising for the website, etc. So business models of an electronic company dont really apply here. And just to save you some trouble... "arguing" or "debating" with me is kinda fruitless unless its a majorly good point, as alot of the time i "have to be right"....mainly caused because of my overconfidence of my abilities(my iq is pretty high, above 150) and the fact that i am more of a serious demeanor than easygoing. I look at all points of things before debating it, and am just stating my opinions of the reasons why apple is somewhat of a "ripoff" to some of the mass users.

Was in an all-in-one? Did it take up the same amount of space? Did it have all the features?

I mean if you really wanted to compare a custom built PC versus a Mac desktop Apple would have to make a mid tower Core2Quad or i7 desktop for it to really be 100% comparable. In reality you can only really compare the iMac to the PC all-in-ones that are also out there, and the iMac trumps all of them in specs, features and price typically. And about business models... its more of a side business and he doesnt know anything about business, i do most of the backend work for it such as websites, account stuff, invoices, etc. Basically all he does is "sell" the stuff(its a food product, so the business model differs quite widely over electronics).

I also understand your point of view too since I built a new PC last fall for about $1400 including a 22" LCD monitor as well and I love it. It plays all the games at the highest settings no problem. It even ran Crysis at higher levels. It does have better specs than my iMac at work, but it is not like I can compare a desktop to an all-in-one product.

I do wish Apple made a midtower desktop instead of just the Mac Pro, which is overkill for almost any average user.

Exactly, thats the only reason i do not prefer the apple products, is that they dont care for the standard user. If apple produced a mid tower with reasonable specs for a reasonable price, that was user upgradeable then it would take part of the many users who want an upgradeable system, without having to purchase something as super high end as the mac pro. But you almost gotta agree with me here, apple does scalp their customers when purchasing "accessories", such as the cinema displays(way more cost than a comparable/better screen same size), those displayport adapters($30 for something that should be included), etc.

...By the way, technically there are 8 models, as the 24 and 20" imacs use a different body, as do the 15" and 17" macbook pro's:p
 
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Droogie

New Member
So even the enthusiast that likes large cases and likes to customize their hardware is still a niche market, while Apple is wanting to build a product for the masses.

You can also customize add any hardware for any Mac, just a lot of times you are going to use external devices, which is why Apple is so big on Firewire.

exactly :D

like i said, PC is my personal preference. i have nothing against apple, i just think prebuilt computers in general are too expensive for me.

those brackets are awesome, never even knew they existed. thats quite an innovative idea there, and could be quite appealing to a business. out of curiosity how much did each of those mac minis run your company.
 

tlarkin

VIP Member
exactly :D

like i said, PC is my personal preference. i have nothing against apple, i just think prebuilt computers in general are too expensive for me.

those brackets are awesome, never even knew they existed. thats quite an innovative idea there, and could be quite appealing to a business. out of curiosity how much did each of those mac minis run your company.

oh abut $500 each I think, and they come standard with DVI video out so they are HDTV ready. I have two in my office hooked to my 42 inch plasma screen but I never use it. It is suppose to be used for mass remote desktop and presentation but I never have time to fuss with it, I am always fixing something that broke.

It does give us the ability though to mount a giant display from the ceiling or up on the wall and have the computer hidden and controlled by remote desktop or by network policies and not have to worry about finding space for another full desktop anywhere. Space is always a factor.
 
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