A Nasty Little Email - Norton360 - Is it Crap?

[deanj20]

Hey Computer Forum,

So evidently some guy read my "slow computer rant" in a thread I posted on here months ago (this one I think), and did not like the fact that I suggested that the OP uninstall Norton 360. He didn't like it so much, he decided he ought to send me an email about it. I replied, and then he got "a little hot". I thought I'd post them on here and get the opinion of the forum on the whole deal.

from james to jeremy 9:58PM 10/23/2010

Hey, I read your advice to a guy to lose norton. Now, I know it uses a lot of resources, but there are much better ways to speed up a laptop than shitcanning the best stealth software a consumer can buy. There's a good reason why is uses so many resources on a computer. First, it runs a backup drive that it compares to the original during idle time and boot up. It has a very good firewall that you can configure down to the smallest item if you want. If you download torrent files it provides great p2p protection as well as masking data usage from many ISP's. I don't even need protection myself as I clean my computer myself with knoppix and others, but I still use norton to save myself time. It is by far the best in the business. Creating a larger pagefile, using readyboost, cutting off windows update and checking manually every other Tuesday and cutting off crap like error reporting and many others will more than make up for anything norton will use. To lose the best software on the system doesn't make sense. When is the last time you used it? Everything else is a joke. You were right about ccleaner but failed to tell the guy the most important thing and that is to check all the boxes including "wipe free space" so the MFT gets wiped. Otherwise you just did nothing important except to your browser. Man, you should pay more attention to whats going on out there. These poor bastards will uninstall norton for no reason. Norton 360 is very good at what it does! James Dodson

To which I replied:

from jeremy to james 1:30AM 10/24/2010

Norton360 is crap. I can't even count the number of machines I've removed viruses from that were equipped with Norton360. It's overkill. AVG free or MS Security Essentials will do just as good a job of keeping a system protected.

I don't know if you work for Norton or what, or are just a "fanboi". If you like it, fine. But do not criticize my advice - getting rid of that bloatware will speed up a system faster than anything else.

As far as "running a backup drive" - that's absurd.

A firewall? Really? Hrmmm - so does Windows - has worked fine for me. "...that you can configure down to the smallest item if you want." Seriously? All I need a firewall to do is allow certain programs to connect on certain ports and block the rest.

Great P2P protection? First of all, you shouldn't be downloading illegal stuff. Second of all, all you have to do is configure µTorrent (or whatever you use) to go through a proxy, and you are anonymously downloading or sharing.

You "clean your computer using Knoppix and others" - wtf? Knoppix is a Live CD... Anyway, I don't need to clean my computer because I don't install viruses and malware on my system... =\

Creating a larger pagefile "shreds" the HDD, and is not a substitute for actual RAM. Readyboost? Never even heard of it, but it sounds like something else that would want to run on startup. You are right about turning off Automatic Updates. However, Error Reporting and "Many Others" actually have a purpose, and disabling them will cause an array of strange behavior from certain programs... go ahead, go in there and start disabling Microsoft Services and see what I mean...

I use CCleaner to clean the registry and delete junk files - that does little for the browser - from that comment, I'm not sure you even understand what CCleaner does...

Look buddy, I don't know you - but you come across as juvenile and inexperienced. If I hurt your feelings by insulting your favorite AV, well, sorry about that. But I'm entitled to my opinion, and anything I've said in my posts (not even sure which one you are referring to) will only improve system performance and protection. As I likely said in my post, it has been my experience that Norton/Symantec software slows the system up worse than the crap it's supposed to protect against.

Also, for future reference, if you have something you want to say to me regarding a post on Computer Forum, then you should post it on the forum. Do not email me again regarding a post. It will be flagged and ignored.

Thanks!
- Jeremy Dean

And James retorted:

from james to jeremy 2:47AM 10/24/2010

Well first I don't download illegal shit. Many things come in torrents. As far as knoppix,m it gives you complete access to your hard drive. Complete. An amateur like you would not know. Next, your Security Essentials is being phased out. Every program you mentioned is amateur stuff. I do this for a living and bill out at $275.00 hr. Anybody that recommends stupid little programs like hijack this malwarebytes is ridiculous. And if you think a pagefile could harm a computer, what do you think a virtual drive would do to it. Windows uses a pagefile by default dumbass. If you're going to mislead these people, I am going to make you a project. Even the dopes at cnet and such know 360 is the best for the average computer user. And I collect malware as a hobby. I have a honeypot and honeypot network to keep track of whats out there, and your little programs are NOT going to keep people off botnets or protect them from sophisticated malware. Get a job you're qualified for if there is one!

And me again:

from jeremy to james 5:50AM 10/24/2010

lol... ok... I'll play along...

"Well first I don't download illegal shit. Many things come in torrents."
Well, in your first message, you said "...provides great p2p protection as well as masking data usage from many ISP's" - Not sure why you would want to "mask data usage" if you're using p2p for legitimate purposes?

"knoppix,m it gives you complete access to your hard drive. Complete. An amateur like you would not know."
Yes, I am aware - that's one of the main reasons I use Knoppix - usually to manage files without having to worry about Windows permissions or restrictions... I still don't think it is all that handy for removing malware - especially for making registry edits. But, whatever you think.

"Next, your Security Essentials is being phased out. Every program you mentioned is amateur stuff."
Security Essentials is not being phased out. Where did you even come up with that? And I don't know about "amateur stuff" - the programs I suggested work, and work well, for the common user with common problems (sluggish computer, malware infections, etc.)

"I do this for a living and bill out at $275.00 hr. Anybody that recommends stupid little programs like hijack this malwarebytes is ridiculous."
Wow. That's way overpriced imho. Would you mind giving me a link to your website so that I may see you portfolio? Your qualifications? Mine is http://www.jeremydean.co.nr - nothing fancy, just my little hobby site, but it's how I make my extra money...

Malwarebyte's Antimalware is a tried and true, excellent little program for getting rid of the little nasties people commonly infect their computer with. HijackThis! is an excellent tool to see what people have installed in various parts of their system and remove BHOs, etc.. very handy, and free! Sure, there are scenarios in which neither tool would be of any use, but, again, solve many of the common problems common users will come across.

"And if you think a pagefile could harm a computer, what do you think a virtual drive would do to it. Windows uses a pagefile by default dumbass."
I realize Windows uses a pagefile by default. But by increasing the size of the pagefile, you increase the frequency of read-write access to the drive. Over time, it will wear the HDD out. And, again, virtual memory is not a good substitute for actual RAM.

"If you're going to mislead these people, I am going to make you a project."
Not sure what that even means? You're threatening me? I'm terrified, I assure you.

"Even the dopes at cnet and such know 360 is the best for the average computer user."
Well, I respectfully disagree. I think it's crap, and that has been my experience with it.

"And I collect malware as a hobby. I have a honeypot and honeypot network to keep track of whats out there, and your little programs are NOT going to keep people off botnets or protect them from sophisticated malware."
I don't doubt that there are many, many variants of malware that "my little programs" would be helpless against - and I know from experience that there are some out there that Norton 360 is useless against, too. The idea is not to get infected in the first place. After I get done working on someones computer, I give them a brief lesson in safe web-browsing practices, and teach them how to and stress the importance of keeping their software up-to-date. If users will not change their browsing habits, then they will inevitably become infected again - whether they are running a low-key, simple AV or a monstrous, resource-hungry and error-prone AV.

"Get a job you're qualified for if there is one!"
That's what I'm working on. You can see my resume on my website. In the meantime, I repair computers on the side, just as I have done for the last fifteen years.

I'm posting our thread of emails to Computer Forum, so that we may get the opinion of the community and maybe actually help someone out, rather than just having a private weiner-measuring contest. View it here: http://www.computerforum.com/184953-nasty-little-email-norton360-crap.html#post1545396

If you have anything else you wish to add, please do so on the forum. Or, if you like, email me again, and I'll put it on the forum.

Have a wonderful day!
-Jeremy

So what do you guys think? Am I out of line to suggest people ditch anything with the Norton stamp? Or is this guy just a hyper-sensitive fanboi? Of course, I guess making that $275/hr, he can afford the "latest and greatest" in AV software...

Thoughts?

 

[deanj20]

I don't intend to have him deleted. His empty "threat" is of little concern to me. I just want to know if anyone thinks he has a point.

I have grown to despise Norton over the years, and frequently suggest to friends, family and customers to uninstall anything bearing the Symantec/Norton label on site, and opt for a free home AV solution.

As far as a corporate environment, I'm not opposed to McAfee (so long as you don't mind your machines going into an endless reboot-loop once in a while ). I don't have any experience with AVG in a corporate setting, but imagine it would provide sufficient protection.

I just don't see what the big deal is about suggesting someone scrap Norton 360 in favor of a free and less intrusive more resourceful anti-virus solution. Does anyone else?

 

[jevery]

I just don't see what the big deal is about suggesting someone scrap Norton 360 in favor of a free and less intrusive more resourceful anti-virus solution. Does anyone else?

No, you're entitled to your opinion just as we all are. Personally, I think you're wrong and that Symantec markets a product as good or better than anyone, but that's my opinion and I'm really not posting here to debate the issue. Now, I think his E-mail was way out of line, however, your retort was equally aggressive. Does the provocation justify an equally aggressive, (and antagonistic), response? i guess we each have to decide that individually.

 

[deanj20]

No, you're entitled to your opinion just as we all are. Personally, I think you're wrong and that Symantec markets a product as good or better than anyone, but that's my opinion and I'm really not posting here to debate the issue. Now, I think his E-mail was way out of line, however, your retort was equally aggressive. Does the provocation justify an equally aggressive, (and antagonistic), response? i guess we each have to decide that individually.

Yeah, that's a character defect I need to work on - the "need to be right" - I could have just ignored the guy.

No doubt or argument that Symantec markets products well... but from what I have seen, their security products are bloated, overly-intrusive, and drain resources as bad (or worse) than the malware they are designed to protect against. I'm not saying I could do better, but I can damn sure download a free product that works better.

That's kind of what I'm trying to get at in this post - is Norton 360, as resource-hogging as it is, justifiably better at what is designed to do than free AV products, such as MS Security Essentials or AVG Free (or Avast or Avira, etc etc)?

If someone can convince me of this, then I would stop telling people to do away with their Symantec/Norton software. But it has been my honest experience that it causes systems more harm than good.

 

[jevery]

That's kind of what I'm trying to get at in this post - is Norton 360, as resource-hogging as it is, justifiably better at what is designed to do than free AV products, such as MS Security Essentials or AVG Free (or Avast or Avira, etc etc)?

If someone can convince me of this, then I would stop telling people to do away with their Symantec/Norton software. But it has been my honest experience that it causes systems more harm than good.

I think AV Comparatives, (http://www.av-comparatives.org/comparativesreviews). is the most competent and impartial site available to help one make an informed judgement.

 

[deanj20]

I think AV Comparatives, (http://www.av-comparatives.org/comparativesreviews). is the most competent and impartial site available to help one make an informed judgement.

Awesome link. Duly noted and bookmarked. Just glancing through the Main-Tests pdf, looks to me like Norton and AVG are neck-and-neck.

Thanks for the link! I'll review it more thoroughly when I get some free time. :good:

 

[johnb35]

Deanj20,

I've sent you a private message.

 

[Jagga]

I'v heard alot of negativity about Norton AV over the years. However, no matter how much you dispise Norton they still end up being on every new PC/Laptop you purchase. :8

 

[deanj20]

I'v heard alot of negativity about Norton AV over the years. However, no matter how much you dispise Norton they still end up being on every new PC/Laptop you purchase. :8

Yeah - and right back off as soon as I get it to the shop.

 

[Bodaggit23]

I'v heard alot of negativity about Norton AV over the years. However, no matter how much you dispise Norton they still end up being on every new PC/Laptop you purchase. :8

Because it's the biggest, not the best...

 

[paulcheung]

Actually, I don't have any bad experence with norton 360 4.0, the only problem I had is when it expired I can't clean uninstalled it. it left something behind, I haven't feel any system slow down when I was using it. just that I only have the trial version.
Have you guys test it recently? with 2-4gb ram and 1.5gh processor or higher? Maybe the computer feel the resource hug is the one with 512mb ram and less than 1 gb processing power.
Just a thought.
Best wishes.

 

[deanj20]

Well, right after I typed the original post, I got a computer in for a woman. 2.4GHz single-core with 1GB RAM - not great, but not too bad for a regular old XP surfing and office work box.

Running Norton AV 2011, it had less than 250MB physical memory free! I uninstalled it, and immediately the free physical memory increased to around 780MB free... admittedly, I disabled other processes too - including Adobe and iTunes (two other notorious resource hogs). But still...

I posted the same thing on a computer security forum I frequent. The guys there had some interesting things to say: http://www.antionline.com/showthread.php?t=279175

After looking at the site jevery posted, I have to say that, while Norton may be effective against malware, I feel that a less resource-burdening and free AV solution just makes more sense for the average home user.

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to post. The guy hasn't sent me any more emails, and I feel more confident in my practice of eliminating Norton from any home-based PC I work on. It just doesn't make sense to burden the system and the pocket-book with an AV that can be replaced by something that is equally-effective, less resource-hungry and free.

 

[Fatback]

I would agree Norton 360 uses quite a bit more resources then other AV's. I personally use Norton Internet Security, and comparing it to AVG, and Avast there is almost no difference in resources used, and no difference in speed. Although I thought they where the same AV, maybe I just have mine configured better, or something.

 

[diduknowthat]

Well that's really random of the guy who emailed you. He obviously has too much time on his hand if he's bothering to contact you instead of making $275 an hour . Either way, I don't have any sort of security software installed on my computer and I haven't ever gotten a virus or a spyware.

 

[MMM]

Every one is entitled to an opinion but pushing your views can be over the top at times.
Some times it pays to turn the other cheek!

Cheers