Who here is also sick of the graphic card companies today?

[SBLiveFordFE]

After talking to my really close friend last night (also a computer nut), we both agreed on one thing. ATI and Nvidia have both took it way to far.

Here's why. HL2....a VERY anticipated game. Finally comes out, but you must have a $400+ card to run it at a full 60 FPS. What about Doom III? Again, your going to have to drop major bucks in your wallet in order to play it.

It wasn't always like this. I'm not a past dweller, but Ill use an example.

My first computer was a pentium 133Mhz. I would play thief on it all the time. probably got 8 FPS, but it was still fun. I went to staples and got a Voodoo 3 2000 for $60 on sale. that 8 FPS now turned to 30 FPS. It was much better for awhile. Then I baught half-life, and all those other games.

Decided it was time for a computer upgrade. Went to a K6-2 500 MHz CPU (my first built computer @ age 14) with an Asus motherboard. I was running at a full 40-50 FPS now. Hitman 1 and 2 starting to come out, along with Max-payne which required more use of the CPU / Videocard.

Grabbed a 800MHz Athlon. From there (for about a year), I had a full 60 + FPS (huge gain was due to the weak FPU in the K6-2) in every game I played. During the next 2 years, I just did little tad-bit upgrades on the side when I saw really good deals. Now I have a 1800+ Athlon, Asus board, Radeon 8500, ETC. If you follow the pattern here, you should notice that this setup "should" be able to run the new stuff easily. But something has changed.

Now, even with this setup, HL2 and DoomIII is going to run like trash. I bet I wont even get 30 FPS @ 1024 X 768 x 32.

Now, is this that the software needs to become more efficient, or the graphic card prices needs to Fall WAY down?

So, I've decided to grab an Athon 64 3000, Upgrade the CHipset from 333Mhz to 400 Mhz, and get faster ram @ christmas.

Guess what? It probably still wont hit 30 FPS consitantly.

So then what? Drop $175 for a Radeon 9800 PRO after christmas? Then what? 45 FPS? See how this doesnt make sense? Thats how much a PS2 cost!

What I'm trying to say is, Nvidia and ATi has thier customers clinched in thier fists. They are drying us of our money, and thats not hard to see. They have the technology to FAR exceed what they have now. Why dont they? To strive our money out as far as they can before they come out with something "new".

They could EASILY drop thier prices $50 or more, and make us ALL happy. Even with just a "measily" 50 bucks, it still will be very expensive. Until then, we have bust out $400 on a video card (+ more on a CPU ETC) to run a brand new game at 60 FPS. How much do you think it costs them to make a board/chipset? $3?

I still think I should be able to go out and buy a $150 card, and be able to slam a new game @ 60 FPS, not 30 fps. Theres a problem here.

What I've been doing to battle the graphics card problem is just wait. I've been waiting nearly 1.5 years, and the prices havnt seem to fall Tremendously. Radeon 9700 or 9800 are still nearly $200. Plus, why even get the 9700 or 9800 if halflife is still going to hit 40 FPS?

What do you guys think?

Nash

 

[Lorand]

Playing games on a computer is wasting time. So what's the big deal in wasting money too on video cards?

 

[Praetor]

HL2....a VERY anticipated game. Finally comes out, but you must have a $400+ card to run it at a full 60 FPS.

Who ever assume you [a] had to play at 60fps, (b) wanted to play (at all)?

Again, your going to have to drop major bucks in your wallet in order to play it.

Not the case. Doom3 will play on a GeForce2MX and those generally dont cost a whackload.

It wasn't always like this. I'm not a past dweller, but Ill use an example.
My first computer was a pentium 133Mhz. I would play thief on it all the time. probably got 8 FPS, but it was still fun. I went to staples and got a Voodoo 3 2000 for $60 on sale. that 8 FPS now turned to 30 FPS. It was much better for awhile. Then I baught half-life, and all those other games.
Decided it was time for a computer upgrade. Went to a K6-2 500 MHz CPU (my first built computer @ age 14) with an Asus motherboard. I was running at a full 40-50 FPS now. Hitman 1 and 2 starting to come out, along with Max-payne which required more use of the CPU / Videocard.
Grabbed a 800MHz Athlon. From there (for about a year), I had a full 60 + FPS (huge gain was due to the weak FPU in the K6-2) in every game I played. During the next 2 years, I just did little tad-bit upgrades on the side when I saw really good deals. Now I have a 1800+ Athlon, Asus board, Radeon 8500, ETC. If you follow the pattern here, you should notice that this setup "should" be able to run the new stuff easily. But something has changed.
Now, even with this setup, HL2 and DoomIII is going to run like trash. I bet I wont even get 30 FPS @ 1024 X 768 x 32

.
1. The improvement in quality is not linear, a polynomial/expontential relationship is much more accurate.
2. You make the assumption that people have to play the game at a reasonable (whatever that is, say 30-60fps for argument sake) rate. While sure it defeats the point of playing if you play at 5fps but that didnt stop me from trying the Betas of Doom3 at -8fps.

Now, is this that the software needs to become more efficient, or the graphic card prices needs to Fall WAY down?

ATI and Nvidia have both took it way to far.

You make a very valid point however there are some flaws:
1. Again i'll reiterate that, at no-point in time did the makers of Doom3/HL2 ever say [a] you had to buy the game, (b) if you bought it, you had to play it or [c] if you played it, it had to be an enjoyable experience
2. At the beginning you mention about hype and anticipation. This is the cause of the dilemma. Since I never fell for the HL2 hype, I can directly respond from the other perspective: [a] adding hype and anticipation for a product only adds to its ostensability (b) since the games and hardware are somewhat affiliated with each other (again because consumer demand wants it that way), the prices of the hardware is affected by the ostensability -- this is an effect caused directly by consumers and less to do with the corporations (i'll get to that too)
3. Specifically regarding nVidia, since they do not make video cards they do not have a direct hand in setting the prices for nVidia based cards -- the OEMs have that capacity (and in turn the stores which can monopolize on the hype). And there's no way nVidia is selling, say 6800Us to OEMs at $600 a chip and there's certainly no way OEMs are selling cards to stores and second-tier suppliers at $600 a card. The majority of the markup comes at the last stage just before the card gets to the consumer. So blaming nVidia would be pointless (because their price to the OEMs is not that ridiculously high) and even blaming the OEMs would be boarderline silly because im sure they dont charge the 2nd tier's that much. What NVidia and OEMs *are* responsible for however, is for adding additional hype to the industry
4. Now regarding ATi, since ATi makes both video cards and video chips, they play a more significant role in pricing (also note how, for comparative ATI/nVidia cards, the ATi cards often cost much more?). Now the chain of markups with ATi cards is a bit longer (since ATi also makes cards directly) but the same principles apply as per nVidia. Another thing about ATI is that due to the phenomnal success of the 9800 cards, there's a lot of market power behind that -- which allows in some cases, for 9800XTs to be higher priced that even X800Pros.

What I'm trying to say is, Nvidia and ATi has thier customers clinched in thier fists.

Not involuntarily (and as such, those that have been clenched dont have much to complain about). A perfect contrast: look at MS Flightsim 2004 ... it supported triple monitors ... yet people didnt run out to buy Parhelias (even if we consider the subset of people who bought Flightsim2004). Its the consumer base that demands a given feature set (i.e., uber quality graphics) and yet at the same time, they fail to realize that such uber-quality graphics comes at a price. Again, if you note that game graphical quality, however measured, is not a linear improvement and yet we expect a linear price increase (or even none/neglible?)

I still think I should be able to go out and buy a $150 card, and be able to slam a new game @ 60 FPS, not 30 fps. Theres a problem here.

And I think gas prices shouldnt be so high.

What I've been doing to battle the graphics card problem is just wait. I've been waiting nearly 1.5 years, and the prices havnt seem to fall Tremendously. Radeon 9700 or 9800 are still nearly $200. Plus, why even get the 9700 or 9800 if halflife is still going to hit 40 FPS?

Again, the issue with ATi having an additional stage for markup as well as the sucuess of the 9x00 cards allows then to get away with that

What do you guys think?

I think you are absolutely correct however you need to get a grip on reality (no offence intended really) ... the market works like that, whether you or I like it or not. If you stop and think about it, what you're essentially saying is "I want ferrari-peformance at pinto prices" which is just not going to happen

 

[Greg J.]

I have never upgraded my system except for the RAM.

I've been waiting for 2 years (almost 3 by 2005) for a new graphics card. I currently have the original NVIDIA OEM AGP 4X GeForce2 MX 100/200 32 MB DDR.

I'm going to have this card until it dies. So, I will wait another 4 years until I will be able to build a brand new custom system with new technology (64-bit) with a 512 MB graphics card, etc. etc.

For the past 5 months I have been studying graphics card prices on site such as newegg.com, as well as official and 3rd party vendors. They are decreasing slowly. 128MB cards can be purchases for as little as $45. Check e-bay if you so desire, for you just might come across a decent deal with a reasonable price. Don't give up hope. Price drops will come. Please note that there will always be people (LIKE ME) without enough money to upgrade their systems fast enough. I'm always waiting.

 

[Praetor]

I'm going to have this card until it dies

I said that about my Discman ... was kinda hopin to get a new one ... friggen thing is too damn well built.

128MB cards can be purchases for as little as $45

Yes but its not so much the memory that matters but more so the chip powering the card

Please not that there will always be people without enough money to upgrade their systems fast enough. I'm always waiting.

Ever so true

 

[SFR]

I think you are absolutely correct however you need to get a grip on reality (no offence intended really) ... the market works like that, whether you or I like it or not. If you stop and think about it, what you're essentially saying is "I want ferrari-peformance at pinto prices" which is just not going to happen

Very true. Every industry works like this. If you think about it, thats what keeps things going.


One side of the industry feeds off of the other sides new technology. Because the software side of the industry keep growing and coming up with new applications and games etc.. the hardware side of the industry needs to catch up and visa versa... this competition.. (for a lack of a better word) OR constant need to keep pace..... causes the rapid growth we have seen and will continue to see in the world of computers. While it is frustrating to buy hardware or software one night, wake up the next morning and find out there is something better..... THINK of the alternative!

If either side stopped or slowed down.... we might NOW be rushing out to buy the amazing GUI with a.. start button?!? WINDOWS 95!!!


Or.. we could be anticipating the release of the AMAZING, NEW .............. 8086