HD 5850 or GTX 470?

[87dtna]

so you use 1080p you would see a bigger fps drop, but is he? i used 768mb version on bc2 with everything maxed and didnt get lag on my 1050 monitor, saved a few £ and got what i wanted!

im sorry but i thought the 6850 was on par with 5830 and the 6870 was better than the 5850?

too many options dam it lol

Yeah I don't know what he's using, but it's not all about the amount of memory either. The higher memory bandwidth of the 1gb allows for less drop in FPS when AA and AF is added.

I did check it out a little more extensively, a 6870 is about on par with a 5850.

Here's a bench-

http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.p...sk=view&id=628&Itemid=72&limit=1&limitstart=7

I'm really glad they got the FTW edition gtx460 in there because it shows how much difference overclocking makes on the 460. Also, their overclocking could only get another 50mhz core clock on the 6870 before they got artifacting, so that shows that AMD is pretty much already maxxing the card out.

 

[iurytx]

My monitor is 1680x1050 but I'm planing on going to 1080p soon. Currently I'm looking to upgrade cause of bc2. My 8800gt isn't cutting it.

 

[87dtna]

The 6870 does look OK, but I'd personally still get a gtx460 1gb. Performance isn't THAT much better to make a switch to ATI.

The gtx460 1gb is a perfect match to 1080p IMO, the 768mb is perfect for 1050.

 

[Aastii]

The 6870 does look OK, but I'd personally still get a gtx460 1gb. Performance isn't THAT much better to make a switch to ATI.

The gtx460 1gb is a perfect match to 1080p IMO, the 768mb is perfect for 1050.

not sure what prices are like over there, but here prices go (from cheapest to most expensive)

6850>460>6870

The price between a 1GB 460 and 6870 is ~£20-30, and for that you get much better performance, with only very marginally greater power draw and noise levels.

Then the 6850, which also beats the 460, at lower and high resolutions, is cheaper by around £10-£0 price difference, with the 6850 being cheaper, and using less power than the 460.

A few days ago, I'd have agreed that the 460 was the best choice, but for the price and the greater performance, either of the current 6000 series cards would be the better choice. You can't say "it isn't worth switching to AMD" when he hasn't got a card to begin with, and the brand shouldn't matter when it comes to making a decision, unless you plan to SLI/Crossfire and can't do 1 or the other on your board, so have to go with a certain manufacturer

 

[87dtna]

He has an 8800gt he said I thought.

Where are you seeing the 6870 is much better performance? I only ever see a couple FPS better, plus as I already mention they always used a completely stock reference gtx460 which is ridiculously low clocked at 675 core clock. All GTX460 1gb's can get to atleast 800-850 core clock on stock volts, the site with the link I showed could only overclock the 6870 by 50mhz on the core clock before artifacting.

Did you see the link I gave with the gtx460 FTW edition? It beat the 6870 easily everytime, it's clocked at 850 core clock.


Also, I've never had an ATI card that overclocked as well on the memory either. I can overclock over 300 mhz on the memory, taking bandwidth from 115gb/s to 135 gb/s.

 

[Aastii]

He has an 8800gt he said I thought.

Where are you seeing the 6870 is much better performance? I only ever see a couple FPS better, plus as I already mention they always used a completely stock reference gtx460 which is ridiculously low clocked at 675 core clock. All GTX460 1gb's can get to atleast 800-850 core clock on stock volts, the site with the link I showed could only overclock the 6870 by 50mhz on the core clock before artifacting.

Did you see the link I gave with the gtx460 FTW edition? It beat the 6870 easily everytime, it's clocked at 850 core clock.


Also, I've never had an ATI card that overclocked as well on the memory either. I can overclock over 300 mhz on the memory, taking bandwidth from 115gb/s to 135 gb/s.

I know it is stock, and I know that the 460s are clocked low and can overclock well, however, comparing stock clocked 6870 to stock 460, the 6870 wins out every time for only a reasonably small price increase. From the benches I have seen you are talking, in some cases, as much as near 20% better performance.

If you put in overclocks though, the price difference changes greatly if you get a factory overclocked 460 compared to a stock 6870, and if you overclock yourself, you lose warranty and face possible problems with system instability, increased heat, and increased power draw. I know that you can get around the warranty issue because the manufacturer can't prove it, and done right the heat/power isn't a problem, but it is extra above what you get as standard, just to meet the performance of the other card.

I'm not saying not to factor in overclocks, but they shouldn't be a key thing, especially when both cards, at stock, will perform well enough in most games, and even when overclocked, the 460 doesn't beat the stock 6870 by a massive amount anyway, at least not enough for me, personally, to justify losing warranty, stability and time over

 

[87dtna]

EVGA not only allows overclocking they support and even advertise overvolting the gtx460 while retaining the warranty! As long as you never do anything to bypass the capped voltage at 1.087.
There is no issue with heat or reliability with a 800 core clock overclock, all 460's can easily do 800 at stock volts and stay under 60c doing it.

Overclocking certainly is a factor when you can only overclock the 6870 by 50mhz and the gtx460 175mhz. Certainly seems like an ATI fanboy argument to not allow overclocking

Furthermore, you have large 1020mhz overclock on your own card, probably with extra voltage, and you are spouting about heat/reliability/warranty? OMG

Also, all new gtx460's come with 720mhz core clock as standard now, so already a 45mhz overclock.

If you don't overclock just get a superclocked gtx460 for the same performance and price (maybe still less) as a 6870

Actually you can get the FTW EE edition directly from EVGA for $240 shipped plus a $10 MIR-

http://www.evga.com/products/moreInfo.asp?pn=01G-P3-1378-TR&family=GeForce 400 Series Family&sw=


The FTW only has a 2 year warranty though, which really is plenty for any card pretty much.

 

[Aastii]

EVGA not only allows overclocking they support and even advertise overvolting the gtx460 while retaining the warranty! As long as you never do anything to bypass the capped voltage at 1.087.
There is no issue with heat or reliability with a 800 core clock overclock, all 460's can easily do 800 at stock volts and stay under 60c doing it.

Overclocking certainly is a factor when you can only overclock the 6870 by 50mhz and the gtx460 175mhz. Certainly seems like an ATI fanboy argument to not allow overclocking

Furthermore, you have large 1020mhz overclock on your own card, probably with extra voltage, and you are spouting about heat/reliability/warranty? OMG

Also, all new gtx460's come with 720mhz core clock as standard now, so already a 45mhz overclock.

If you don't overclock just get a superclocked gtx460 for the same performance and price (maybe still less) as a 6870

Actually you can get the FTW EE edition directly from EVGA for $240 shipped plus a $10 MIR-

http://www.evga.com/products/moreInfo.asp?pn=01G-P3-1378-TR&family=GeForce 400 Series Family&sw=


The FTW only has a 2 year warranty though, which really is plenty for any card pretty much.

You've said about me being an ATi fanboy at other times, even though I have recommend nVidia cards on here, and ATi as well, have owned both ATi and nVidia and would take either. You always seem to mention it if I'm saying ATi shouldn't just be discarded because they are ATi, or there is an nVidia alternative, basically any time that there is a difference in opinion, or if a conflicting argument to yours comes up. To me it is just whichever will give you the best prformance for the price, so give that one a rest, I couldn't care less whose technology I buy for any part of my system.

I bought my 5770 second hand, as it was the best I could get for the amount I had available, I didn't buy it for the overclockability, that wasn't, at any point, a factor in my purchase or in the purchasing of any other part of my computer, it was an afterthought. I know now I've lost warranty, I know that my card is using more power, and I know that it is producing more heat.

Rather than spending half of your post having digs at me, which you seem to do to everyone in with most posts if they have a difference in opinion to you, why not just give the reasons as to why you think what I say isn't right, and why OP should get 1 card over another? This thread, and no other thread for that matter, is for trying to pick holes in the other person or make things personal, it is there for discussion or for help, and constantly saying "but you do this that and other, omg" doesn't achieve either of those.

Like I said, overclocks shouldn't be there as a "you must buy this card because it overclocks well", it should be a bonus. An overclocked 460 will indeed beat a stock 6870, but, again, like I said, imo the gain that you get isn't enough to outweigh the cons. If you were getting an unbelievable amount of extra performance, I would be agreeing that the 460 is better, but the fact is you don't get massive, noticeable amounts extra performance

 

[87dtna]

Well with EVGA you don't lose the warranty overclocking, or overvolting either. Maybe thats a good reason. I already mentioned that in the post you replied to. So there goes your biggest con. What else is there as a con for the 460?
And while I'm repeating, if you aren't an overclocker all you have to do is buy the superclocked gtx460 1gb, which is still cheaper than the 6870, to get the performance as the 6870 stock for stock.

And if you really want to get all technical, the 6870 or a gtx460 isn't going to give you ''massive'' gains over a gtx260 or a 5770 either, which can be had for $100-120 now.

Reasons-
GTX460 is smaller, cooler, less power draw, overclocks better, same strength when mildly overclocked , stronger when highly overclocked, lifetime warranty from EVGA thats not voided with overclock, and it's cheaper.

8 reasons isn't enough?

Edit- Lets make it 9 reasons- As I mentioned earlier, a gtx460 may be able to be unlocked once the 475's come out and you can get a Bios for it. At that point, the 6870 will eat dust from the gtx475.

So what are the reasons to get the 6870 over the gtx460? Slightly stronger at stock clocks....OK thats one....

 

[Aastii]

Well with EVGA you don't lose the warranty overclocking, or overvolting either. Maybe thats a good reason. I already mentioned that in the post you replied to. So there goes your biggest con. What else is there as a con for the 460?
And while I'm repeating, if you aren't an overclocker all you have to do is buy the superclocked gtx460 1gb, which is still cheaper than the 6870, to get the performance as the 6870 stock for stock.

And if you really want to get all technical, the 6870 or a gtx460 isn't going to give you ''massive'' gains over a gtx260 or a 5770 either, which can be had for $100-120 now.

Reasons-
GTX460 is smaller, cooler, less power draw, overclocks better, same strength when mildly overclocked , stronger when highly overclocked, lifetime warranty from EVGA thats not voided with overclock, and it's cheaper.

8 reasons isn't enough?

Edit- Lets make it 9 reasons- As I mentioned earlier, a gtx460 may be able to be unlocked once the 475's come out and you can get a Bios for it. At that point, the 6870 will eat dust from the gtx475.

So what are the reasons to get the 6870 over the gtx460? Slightly stronger at stock clocks....OK thats one....

The size, temperature and (to a point) the overclockability are reasons for it, yes, especially the first 2, the 460 is tiny for the power it throws out, and 10-15 degrees difference is pretty damn big, but the others are getting into what I was saying about benchmarks in another thread about them, and how a very tiny difference is often blown out of all proportions.

At stock, under load, the 460 draws about 4 watt less. Are you seriously saying that a 4 watt difference is a reason to buy 1 card over another? That is, for the sake of argument, the exact same power draw, you aren't going to notice the difference by stress on your PSU, or on your electricity bill. The factory overclocked cards will be drawing slightly more power than a stock 6870 will, but again, not that much that it will be noticable, so is neither a pro, nor a con

The lifetime warranty, what about the XFX 6870? Lifetime warranty, and if you want to OC, they can't prove that you have done, so although in the fine print, you lose warranty, in reality you know as well as me that you don't. It is nice to know with EVGA that they won't throw it back in your face and say they think you have overclocked, so aren't going to cover you, but like everything else to do with overclocking, unless you are happy to potentially lose your warranty and want the extra performance, it isn't really a factor.

I'm going to linger on that last point for a moment, to say the reason why I don't think it should be a reason, is the same reason that I don't think saying get a dual or tri core PhenomII/AthlonII with a board with ACC, you might be able to make it a quad core should be a reason. It isn't certain you will get the extra core, just like it isn't certain you will get the same overclocks as everyone else. You get yourself an awful chip, and you going buying a card "because it is a great overclocker" has just been for nothing. It is a personal thing, but I would rather know for certain that I have what I want and need, and have anything else as a nice bonus. With the 6870, you get what you want and need without changing anything.

Then what you said about performance. In a fair few games/tests, the 6870 is on par with a 5850 or GTX470. An overclocked 460 can meet/beat a 5850, and can get close to 470, but not to the extent that a 6870 does. But again, we are getting into the realms of can you notice the difference, and I think the answer there is no. Image quality is near identical, fps is also, but that is with 1 card stock, the other overclocked. I know, from those 2, which I would pick.

Price:

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/1gb-...stream-processors-2x-dl-dvi-i-hdmi-2x-mini-dp

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/1gb-...shader-1700mhz-336cores-2xdl-dvi-i-1xminihdmi

~£5 difference, again, isn't exactly a fortune. If it were more, I could understand, but as prices change, which they will do, the 6870 will drop in price after the initial period of just being released, where as nvidia won't be dropping the 460 price for a while yet.

I have just checked on newegg though also, and there there is ~$30 difference between those 2 cards (with MIR factored in), which is definitely a sum that would justify getting one over the other, so I have to agree with you that for the prices on the egg, the 460 would be the better option.

And the final edit that you put in about the 475, it should be if the 475 comes out, not when. So far the only "evidence" that there is a 475 coming is from nvidia's past, and from speculation. No word has come from nvidia's mouth about revised fermi cards, or any solid fact that a 460 can have its bios flashed to vastly increased performance

 

[87dtna]

An ''awful' overclocker is one that doesn't get past 800 core clock on stock volts.

The superclocked version would probably be about the same strength as a 6870, and should be cheaper than the FTW edition. And if the FTW is stronger, stock is weaker, safe to assume the superclocked is probably right around the exact same strength.

All you are doing is playing down my reasons. All you can say is ''oh thats not that big of deal'', but it's still a reason. There is ZERO reason to get a 6870 over a superclocked gtx460 1gb. they are the same strength. So stop rambling about ''the same reason you recommend getting a quad over taking a chance to unlock cores''. There is no chance (talking about overclocking), they are the same PLUS you get the chance of unlocking with the 460 to a 475 in the future.

That whole huge post and you cannot come up with a reason why to get a 6870 over a gtx460 SC 1gb when I've given you 9 reasons. Some small reasons, but they are still pro's for the 460 over the 6870. Please give me your list of reasons.

A gtx460 is already a 475 with a block of stream processors shut down. There is 100% chance of a release of a gtx475 because it's already here in the detuned form.... a 460. What they are waiting for is the gtx470's to be sold because Nvidia knows they won't sell anymore of them at all once they release the way better 475. It's also the reason they are staying quiet about it.

 

[StrangleHold]

Should not base opinions on one review. Here at Canucks, it looks like the 6850 damn near is equal to the 460 1gb. And both have better power draw then the 460. Plus cherry drivers.
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru.../37286-amd-radeon-hd-6870-hd-6850-review.html

 

[87dtna]

Nope, they used 260.89 drivers. I've personally had benches score much higher with the 258.96 drivers. The 260 drivers are for the gts450.

I mean, have some common sense. Most of the time a 5830 is whipping the 460 1gb. Come on.

And also, yet again, a super low clocked 675mhz core clock gtx460 1gb.

Actually, just looked and the other review used the same drivers too. Interesting.

 

[funkysnair]

i have read up more on this and looked at benchmarks and in my opinion the 6870 looks the better buy!

i really dont know why you are banging on about overclocking etc, the op didnt mention overclocking?

the price of the cards over here in uk are far more matched and for that reason i would get the 6870, however if i could find a gtx460 1gb for say £30-£40 less i would choose the gtx460.

 

[Aastii]

i have read up more on this and looked at benchmarks and in my opinion the 6870 looks the better buy!

i really dont know why you are banging on about overclocking etc, the op didnt mention overclocking?

the price of the cards over here in uk are far more matched and for that reason i would get the 6870, however if i could find a gtx460 1gb for say £30-£40 less i would choose the gtx460.

Exactly. Out of the box, you are getting much better performance. You can overclock the 460, and you may get slightly better, or close to the performance of, the 6870, but at the cost of extra power draw (not a whole lot more than the 6870, so can't really be a reason, but it is a fact so will throw it in there), extra heat and extra hassle.

On the egg, the $30 difference makes the 460 the better buy, but if it gets to the point where there is only a few $ in it, like over here now, the 6870 would be the best choice every single time

 

[87dtna]

For like the millionth time, if you aren't an overclocker, getting the superclocked gtx460 is equal performance to a 6870, and still cheaper.

Edit- Or the FTW edition for the same price is a stronger card.

 

[87dtna]

Also, looks like gtx460 1gb's took a dive in price with the release of the 6k series.

Now a 1gb is $200 free shipping-

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130565


Thats $47 cheaper than a 6870...

A superclocked lifetime warranty 460 is now $224 shipped minus a $10 MIR-

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130568


So still $33 cheaper than the cheapest 6870, which only has a 2 year warranty.

The cheapest 6870 with lifetime warranty is the XFX at $268 shipped. So $54 cheaper to get the superclocked gtx460 lifetime warranty card. This seems like a no brainer.

 

[funkysnair]

well played on nvidias part basicly there dropping there prices to a point where you cant look anywhere else, all this competition is obviously paying off for use...

i bet if ATI wasnt around Nvidia wouldnt let you have the gtx 460 for the price its at now, and vice versa.

im looking forward to seeing what the next step for ATI is going to be, the 6870 i think was aimed at the gtx 460 as nvidia has the best bang for buck in the mid region gpu market

 

[87dtna]

Competition is healthy, definitely. I think the 6870 is a fail in that regard. They needed to make it stronger than it is to compete. I guess they knew that everyone was going to compare it to a super low clocked reference gtx460 at 675mhz core clock....which you almost can't even get anyone. Nearly all the gtx460 1gb's are now clocked at 720mhz. The super clocked are at 763mhz.

 

[funkysnair]

at this point a super clocked version of the gtx 460 is the winner but if ATI can hurry up and push out a high clocked 6870 then i would have to rethink