Questions and prep for Liquid Cooling

[CrazyMike]

Just my $.02, but when you are running your tubing, it would be a really good idea to put a a radiator between your CPU and GPU so your not getting the hot coolant from component to the other.

That was my first thought too!. What do you think about CPU > 120mm Rad > GPU ? That should work out pretty good right? I was planning on mounting the 120mm on the back fan area.

The total look I have pictured in my head is as follows:

Res > Pump > 240mm Top Rad > CPU > 120mm Back Rad > GPU > 240mm Front Rad > back to res.

Thoughts?

 

[salvage-this]

Like said, probably not going to be using the H220 at all. All from scratch.

Fittings, most deffinately will have to design > 24hr test run > Install > then in a few weeks tighten again.

Why I think I need a new case is that you mentioned that 2x 240mm rad is ideal for 2 components. When I purchase all this, I will have 2 components already. So ideal would be 2x 240mm rad. Now if I just use my Corsair 600T case, I wouldn't be supplying ideal situation. I would only be doing what is necessary. So this means that in the future, if I decide on another card or expanding to support my motherboard, I would be in need of a new case anyway. I'd much rather do things right the first time, then come back and have to fix it later.

So I went and used FrozenCPU.com for reference and priced everything out. I am roughly looking, so far, approximately $1500. Over my $1000 hope mark, but actually surprisingly still do-able. I am working out all the details (case, and design of loop), so price details right now are fuzzy.

Since you do not seem to want to go full tower see if you can find a case that you can mount a 140.2 or 140.3 rad on top and a single 140 in the back or bottom. A 140 rad will give you an extra ~35% more performance (if it is linear) over a 120 rad. So think that each 140 rad should be comparable to 1.35 120 rads. Going off that you can use one 140.3 or 140.2 with a 140.1 later in the loop and have the same performance as a 120.4 rad

The other option is to go for an external mount. Not the best looking thing ever but it will give you more space to work with. Here is an example of what I mean
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/6206/dsc02868.jpg

Just my $.02, but when you are running your tubing, it would be a really good idea to put a a radiator between your CPU and GPU so your not getting the hot coolant from component to the other.

I thought that too when I was looking into this at first. but I kept seeing posts that said it didn't really matter. Here is a link to show you what I mean.

http://rog.asus.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-16674.html?

look at the posts from fronzel and xeromist

Now there is nothing wrong with having radiators between components, I would not compromise the structure of the loop to have the radiators in specific spots.

 

[CrazyMike]

Since you do not seem to want to go full tower see if you can find a case that you can mount a 140.2 or 140.3 rad on top and a single 140 in the back or bottom. A 140 rad will give you an extra ~35% more performance (if it is linear) over a 120 rad. So think that each 140 rad should be comparable to 1.35 120 rads. Going off that you can use one 140.3 or 140.2 with a 140.1 later in the loop and have the same performance as a 120.4 rad

The other option is to go for an external mount. Not the best looking thing ever but it will give you more space to work with. Here is an example of what I mean
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/6206/dsc02868.jpg




I thought that too when I was looking into this at first. but I kept seeing posts that said it didn't really matter. Here is a link to show you what I mean.

http://rog.asus.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-16674.html?

look at the posts from fronzel and xeromist

Now there is nothing wrong with having radiators between components, I would not compromise the structure of the loop to have the radiators in specific spots.

First Part:
If you take a look at the cases that I have chosen to pick from, They are all able to place a 240mm fan up top and a 240mm at the front. Wouldn't this be better then using 140mm radiators?
*Should also note that couple of the cases even allow for the deeper 240mm radiator (I can't remember the name of those).

Second Part:
So judging by that, I would see no gain in temperature difference (even 1 or 2C) by adding another radiator between the CPU and GPU, correct? When in fact (which makes total sense if using one pump) the amount of flow loss would hinder on the life and performance of the pump.

I totally agree with this, which actually brings me to my next question of the day. At what point should a person add another pump? Meaning running a dual pump setup. I have calculated friction loss in larger items (firetrucks and lines when I was firefighting) but never on a small scale such as this. Where could a person find the friction loss with each component?

 

[salvage-this]

First Part:
If you take a look at the cases that I have chosen to pick from, They are all able to place a 240mm fan up top and a 240mm at the front. Wouldn't this be better then using 140mm radiators?
*Should also note that couple of the cases even allow for the deeper 240mm radiator (I can't remember the name of those).

Maybe? a 140 rad vs 2 120 rads. Yes the 2 120 rads will perform better. but if you are comparing a 140.2 vs a 120.2 the 140 wins. Take a look at the performance benchmarks of the Corsair H100 vs H110.

Second Part:
So judging by that, I would see no gain in temperature difference (even 1 or 2C) by adding another radiator between the CPU and GPU, correct? When in fact (which makes total sense if using one pump) the amount of flow loss would hinder on the life and performance of the pump.

I totally agree with this, which actually brings me to my next question of the day. At what point should a person add another pump? Meaning running a dual pump setup. I have calculated friction loss in larger items (firetrucks and lines when I was firefighting) but never on a small scale such as this. Where could a person find the friction loss with each component?

2 or more pumps can either add redundancy increase flow rate or can be used for multiple loops. here is a breakdown what I mean.

redundancy- 2 pumps in one loop. If one fails then the other still keeps the liquid flowing and the loop still working. If you get a good pump I see no really good reason for this when you are limited by space and money.

increased flow rate- if you have 2 pumps you can effectively double the rate that the loop will flow at. Since you are planning on getting a pump that can handle the loop on it's own, the benefit really becomes less wear on the pump due too the decreased speed. All in all it's not really something to worry about unless you have 2 pumps for other reasons. You want to shoot for 1-1.5 gallons per minute. So either you have one pump that can keep the loop at that range or 2 pumps that together add up to that flow rate.

The last reason (that I know of) is by far the best. It has to do with managing ΔT or change in temperature over ambient of the room. This might get a bit long so sorry in advance...

Any cooling system that is not actively being cooled with an external source, like a water chiller, can't get the liquid in the loop lower than ambient temperature in the room. It's impossible. So what very smart people have figured out is that CPUs like to be under a ΔT of 2c, at the extreme end 5c for high end and 10c for good liquid cooling. Meaning that under load the liquid in the loop is no higher than 2c, 5c or 10c above what the loop would be at room temperature.

GPUs can withstand more heat than CPUs can so loops dedicated to GPUs might have a ΔT of 10c to 15c.

So how does this factor in to more than 1 pump? More than 1 loop. Some enthusiasts want to fine tune their loops so they have one loop for CPU that they keep the ΔT between 2c and 5c. As well as a dedicated GPU loop that can go higher than 10c ΔT.

I hope that helps explain that a bit more.

 

[CrazyMike]

Thanks a lot Salvage!

Now I am just about completed my list of parts. I am actually comparing the cost between all barb fittings and all compression fittings, and in the grand scheme of things, it's not really that much more.

The question I have is "When shopping for a radiator, how does one know what brand to go with? or what special features you should look for?"

I want to get two dual 120mm radiators (For front and top) but no idea what i am looking for in a radiator. How does one out perform the other?

Side question - I have been watching a guys youtube channel (here is his channel). This guy seems like he knows a little something, but one point he brought up was a change in manufacturing of tubing. I can't remember the exact video. But anyway, this guy explains that it is not actually the dye that clogs your loop, it's the deterioration of the tubing. He explains that the discoloration of the tubing is the deterioration actually happening.

I kind of believe this dude. I mean dye is just dye, it would make sense that the plastic tubing deteriorating would cause a clog/buildup not the dye. Now the dye could cause a faster deterioration than no dye.

Couple Questions:
1)Would you recommend using dye?
2)Has anyone notice that one brand of tubing deteriorates faster than another?

A tubing that I am specifically looking at is "XSPC FLX Premium Grade PVC Tubing (3/8 x 5/8)" I was looking at Tygon, but can't find a white tubing. But if there is no problem using dye, I was going to go with clear Tygon with blue Mayhem dye.

 

[Motoxrdude]

First Part:
Second Part:
So judging by that, I would see no gain in temperature difference (even 1 or 2C) by adding another radiator between the CPU and GPU, correct? When in fact (which makes total sense if using one pump) the amount of flow loss would hinder on the life and performance of the pump.

From what I read in that link it basically makes no difference. However, if you have a case that doesn't support a 240mm or 2x120mm radiator, so you had to run two radiators, that would be the way I would do it.

increased flow rate- if you have 2 pumps you can effectively double the rate that the loop will flow at. Since you are planning on getting a pump that can handle the loop on it's own, the benefit really becomes less wear on the pump due too the decreased speed.

Having two water pumps won't double flow rate, but it will increase flow rate. The flow rate of a pump will never be more than its flow rate with no resistance. It's the same as putting two fans together. They won't move air any faster, but if there was resistance, like a radiator, the flow rate would increase but it would never flow faster than the one fan with zero resistance.

I would personally run two pumps though for redundancy but it would come down to how much you want to spend on the setup.

 

[CrazyMike]

Hey, just giving this a bump to see if anyone can help me out with this:

Thanks a lot Salvage!

Now I am just about completed my list of parts. I am actually comparing the cost between all barb fittings and all compression fittings, and in the grand scheme of things, it's not really that much more.

The question I have is "When shopping for a radiator, how does one know what brand to go with? or what special features you should look for?"

I want to get two dual 120mm radiators (For front and top) but no idea what i am looking for in a radiator. How does one out perform the other?

Side question - I have been watching a guys youtube channel (here is his channel). This guy seems like he knows a little something, but one point he brought up was a change in manufacturing of tubing. I can't remember the exact video. But anyway, this guy explains that it is not actually the dye that clogs your loop, it's the deterioration of the tubing. He explains that the discoloration of the tubing is the deterioration actually happening.

I kind of believe this dude. I mean dye is just dye, it would make sense that the plastic tubing deteriorating would cause a clog/buildup not the dye. Now the dye could cause a faster deterioration than no dye.

Couple Questions:
1)Would you recommend using dye?
2)Has anyone notice that one brand of tubing deteriorates faster than another?

A tubing that I am specifically looking at is "XSPC FLX Premium Grade PVC Tubing (3/8 x 5/8)" I was looking at Tygon, but can't find a white tubing. But if there is no problem using dye, I was going to go with clear Tygon with blue Mayhem dye.