Buying Advice For Mac?

Discussion in 'Desktop Computers' started by Doctor Varney, Mar 16, 2011.

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  1. tlarkin

    tlarkin VIP Member

    Messages:
    12,874
    Someone named iceynipples is calling me a waste of time. I told you to search the forums. I have posted on this topic countless times. However, since you are too lazy to search the forums I searched and found the old thread where I proved this to be true. I did an updated one about a month ago, though it wasn't in my thread so it was not really findable.

    http://www.computerforum.com/175469-if-you-insist-comparing-pc-mac-read-first.html

    You fail to do an actual comparison. People who think they are tech savvy and often don't understand how computers work on a basic level in and out, like to make blanketed statements and use misinformation to make their point.

    point in case:
    A Mac Pro isn't some assemble a bunch of parts off of newegg type computer. For one, it runs dual xeon processors. Each processor is going to cost you $800 to $1300 a piece. Next, it uses ECC memory, because it is meant to do super high end work. Things like audio/video rendering, research crunching, high end calculations and so forth. It isn't meant for some teenager to play video games on. You say you can build a higher spec computer than a Mac Pro for half the price? Let us see you do it.

    Again, you aren't comparing spec for spec, part for part, feature to feature. You will be hard pressed to find a dual xeon work station cheaper than a Mac Pro, and you will find it virtually impossible to build one.

    I have backed up my claims with thought out logical arguments, breaking things down to the minimum to compare them. Ultimately I do not think a PC and a Mac are comparable, as they are different systems all together. However, I do think if you are going to compare them, you should at least break everything down and compare them in a manner that is an actual comparison.

    So, you build a desktop cheaper than an iMac and a Mac Pro then. Prove me wrong. Remember though you gotta do a full comparison of everything to make it an actual comparison.
     
  2. tlarkin

    tlarkin VIP Member

    Messages:
    12,874
    I agree, that most malicious attacks fool the end user these days over self replicating viruses. That no OS is immune to them because the user is the weakest link. That still doesn't take away that on paper and by design OS X is more secure than Windows.

    I will come to an agreement though that these types of security concerns are more of a moot point these days, and that market share does in fact factor in. There are more PC devices running Windows so they will be a larger target. In that regard a Mac could be considered safer in the sense that it is a less widely targeted system.

    I also think that in the end you will use what you prefer, and if you prefer Linux you will use it, Mac you will use a Mac, and Windows you will use Windows. There really is no right or wrong answer in this, since it is what you prefer.

    What I am talking about is that when you really compare a Mac to a PC, feature to feature, spec to spec, and part for part they really aren't that over priced. You do have to realize when making that comparison Apple does use higher quality builds to sell their products. Whether you want to use those features or think you would benefit from them is a different story.
     
  3. Iceyn1pples

    Iceyn1pples New Member

    Messages:
    107
    this is Right from the apple.com Mac Pro

    # Two 2.66GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon “Westmere” (12 cores)
    # 12GB (6X2GB) - is that possible?? I dont think 6gb exist. I assume (for the sake of performance) that they put 3x2gb per CPU to equal 6GB
    # 512GB solid-state drive
    # 2TB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s hard drive
    # ATI Radeon HD 5770 1GB
    # One 18x SuperDrive
    # Apple Magic Mouse
    # Apple Keyboard with Numeric Keypad (English) & User's Guide

    6999.00


    Intel Xeon X5650 Westmere 2.66GHz 12MB L3 Cache LGA 1366 95W Six-Core Server Processor BX80614X5650
    2x 1019.99 = 2039.99

    TYAN S7002G2NR-LE Dual LGA 1366 Intel 5500 Tylersburg SSI CEB Dual Intel Xeon 5500 Series Server Motherboard
    254.99

    Kingston ValueRAM 6GB (3 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM ECC Unbuffered DDR3 1333 Server Memory Model KVR1333D3E9SK3/6G
    2x 75.99 = 151.98

    Kingston SSDNow V+100 SVP100S2B/512GR 2.5" 512GB SATA II MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)
    1139.99

    Western Digital Caviar Green WD20EARS 2TB 64MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s
    79.99

    PowerColor AX5770 1GBD5-H Radeon HD 5770 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.1 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video Card
    109.99

    LG Black 22X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 16X DVD+R DL 22X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 12X DVD-RAM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM 2MB Cache IDE CD/DVD Burner
    20.99

    GIGABYTE GM-M7700 Noble Black 3+3 Buttons 4 Directional Scrolling 2.4GHz Wireless Laser Mouse for Notebook
    25.99

    GIGABYTE GK-K6800 Glossy Black USB Wired Standard Professional Multimedia Keyboard
    25.99

    Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit 1-Pack for System Builder
    179.99

    NZXT Phantom PHAN-001WT White Steel / Plastic Enthusiast ATX Full Tower Computer Case
    139.99

    CORSAIR Enthusiast Series TX850 V2 850W ATX12V v2.31/ EPS12V v2.92 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC High Performance Power Supply
    139.99


    4309.86

    No time to argue with you atm, I will once i get home from work.

    EDIT: http://www.expedia.ca/daily/enc4105...inclusive-resorts.asp?dest=Dominican-Republic

    Woot! enough left over to go on Vacation!!
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2011
  4. tlarkin

    tlarkin VIP Member

    Messages:
    12,874
    The standard high end Mac Pro is $4,999.00 not $6,999.00.

    Also provide links with your parts please. You are also missing some features the Mac Pro has. Dual access to memory from the CPU buses on both processors, not sure if that board fully supports it. Last I checked the only motherboard that supported it was Intel and it was $400 and change.

    You are missing FW800, optical audio, Blue Tooth, built in 802.1ABGN wifi, and a few other minor things to make a good comparison.

    What country are you from where the Mac Pro costs that much?

    ##EDIT##

    Oh I see your build has a solid state drive added into it, yeah that is going to cost you more.
     
  5. CdnAudiophile

    CdnAudiophile Member

    Messages:
    934
    Yea because we all know that those parts will cost another $2700 to add :rolleyes:
     
  6. tlarkin

    tlarkin VIP Member

    Messages:
    12,874
    I don't have time to compare the specs of that motherboard to the motherboard that is in the Mac Pro, though I suspect that Mobo is not comparable, and that you would have to go with the 400 to 500 dollar models that Intel make, which are also dual xeon boards.

    The point is, if you want to do an honest comparison you must make them both equal spec wise, then compare the costs.
     
  7. CdnAudiophile

    CdnAudiophile Member

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    934
    Say we went with a 1000 dollar motherboard, it would STILL be $2000 less then the mac so your point is moot.
     
  8. Iceyn1pples

    Iceyn1pples New Member

    Messages:
    107
    All the parts are from Newegg.com

    I will assume you have enough intelligence to find these parts on the site.

    You think the rest of the features you mention can merit the 2600 difference?? I can build a separate Gaming machine for that amount, even if i decide to go on vacation.

    I will add those petty little features that you want so much. I assume the FW800 is firewire? Who uses that old interface when USB3 and Esata are available...

    Roughly guessing:

    Bluetooth - about 19.99
    WIFI card - 39.99 EDIT* people who use these type of workstations use Gigabit LAN, so wifi and the A/B/G/N is just useless in this aspect.
    soundcard with optical - 100

    and lets just add this intel motherbaord that you mention, ill make it the upper limit of you "400 and change" and say it will cost 500

    thats a delta of $245 + 19.99+39.99+100 = 405.98
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2011
  9. CdnAudiophile

    CdnAudiophile Member

    Messages:
    934
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2011
  10. tlarkin

    tlarkin VIP Member

    Messages:
    12,874
    That is still not comparable.....your hardware is inferior, and it is not spec for spec. I get it, that in some cases it will be tough to match spec for spec, since you cannot always buy retail or direct the same spec parts certain companies use on their products. After market parts are going to have a variance.

    There are features that the motherboard you listed are absent in Mac Pros. Like I said, I don't have time to research every minor difference, but in the high end hardware world, a minor difference can mean several hundred dollars in cost.

    Also, after market parts like hard drives and RAM are moot, since you can buy those from anywhere and save money. I know Apple marks up their parts cost, just like every other computer company out there. However, since we are building a PC against a Mac Pro I am going to use the same logic and availability to cut my costs down as well.

    Now, comparing an Apple to a Dell or a Sun, or IBM or anyone else that makes high end desktops and servers (since basically a Mac Pro is using server parts) they all cost about the same price. You cannot say a Mac Pro is over priced compared to a high end Dell Work station, or a high end Sun workstation (though I am not sure if Sun even does hardware anymore after the Oracle merger), and so forth.

    You cannot simply just newegg search similar hardware and call it the same thing. Plus like I said, any RAM, HD, SSD, is universal, so the prices for those will be the same.
     
  11. Iceyn1pples

    Iceyn1pples New Member

    Messages:
    107
    Ya...but the difference is, if you price out a Dell, and its too expensive, you can go build one. Or pay someone to build it, and still save money. I dont think you can with the Mac.

    EDIT: Im starting to think the OP is a troll...havent heard from him in a while....I guess we can only deal with one troll at a time...
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2011
  12. PunterCam

    PunterCam Active Member

    Messages:
    1,047
    I'll wade on in here!

    Macs run faster for longer. It's a fact based on years of experience. My mac pro is nearly 5 years old and runs like new. It's silent, boots in seconds, runs ALL of the latest software, and is a pleasure to own. I can't even remember what equivalent PC I owned 5 years ago...

    On the other hand, windows7 is a million times better than XP was. It's stable, as long as you're sensible (a mad moment downloading and installing the wrong thing will still ruin a system though - user error or not, installing the wrong thing on OSX doesn't ruin anything). 7s window handling is lovely, and everything opens and runs very positively.

    Apple only has a small market share because of the price of their products. Problems with the OS aren't well publicised because there are none, not because of the small share as suggested elsewhere in this thread. And, while a grand for a desktop (imac) is a lot of cash, for what you get I'd say it's a bit of a bargain.

    Business and work, where money and professionalism are paramount, Apple products every time.
     
  13. Iceyn1pples

    Iceyn1pples New Member

    Messages:
    107
    Are you a scientist? Have you performed experiments to back up your claims?
    Just because that is what you experienced does not make it a fact!

    ...actually, all of your claims are just as ridiculous whether it was pro Mac or Pro windows...

    So because you cannot trump my arugments, you attack my name?? Are you seriously going there?? I sir, will refrain from name calling. But at least i give you enough respect to spell your name correctly...afterall, it is a name.

    However, i have not seen any counter arguments about the computer I built:

    I don't recall saying half price....please correct me if im wrong.

    But.......(its a big one)...

    In this case 6999.00, not 13k.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2011
  14. paulcheung

    paulcheung Active Member

    Messages:
    1,114
    PC and Mac are out there well over 25 years. Steve Jobs and Bill Gate are compete with each other over 25 years, The PC is more popular Than Apple is that Apple is a closed system it doesn't even licence other people to build the hardware to use their OS.
    In the other hand because MSdos are licenced from IBM so Bill Gate can't close the door for others to use it. (Am I right with my memory? I stand for correction here.)

    The way the OP trash his PC make me wonder. he claim he use them over 20 years and Mac is there all the time, if he beleive Mac is more stable why didn't he change it long time ago?

    If you use PC with any version windows and office alone. The guarrantee it never crash. because the amount of the different softwares from different software developer it is almost impossible to make everything work flawlessly all together. it is have to twist and turn to make them work together.

    When you compare the two together, one has to ask, what I use this computer for? do i need to pay for the premium price to use a handful software to get my work done? just for a piece of mind that I beleive it is more stable? then have no room to improve in the future? or
    I can get even more raw computing power with less price to do my work with tons of software at my finger tip? as an experience PC user I have no problem to get my work done with the less costing pc. SO pc for me all the way.
    Cheers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2011
  15. tlarkin

    tlarkin VIP Member

    Messages:
    12,874
    @ Icey,

    I still haven't verified if all that hardware is to spec and I really don't feel like spending a few hours doing so. It is your claim, you need to verify it. I have done build vs a Mac in many different threads. Use the search function to look them up, as I am tired of repeating myself. Also, to be fair you need to compare the Mac when it first came out, that model is nearly a year old. I openly admit that if you buy a Mac at end of life cycle it is a way worse deal than buying at beginning of life cycle. Since Apple has a set business model, of 3 versions of everything at 3 set price tiers, you get a way better deal when the newest model comes out. Most people who buy Macs usually wait for a product refresh. Since that Mac Pro is from Summer 2010 the new Mac Pro coming out that will replace it very soon, for the same price will be the better comparison.

    I also haven't included software, support, and warranty yet either. We are just comparing purely hardware. If you want my arguments search the forum, as I have done it plenty of times.

    This is exactly one of my main points. This covers overall cost of ownership, since that really depends on your opinions and experiences, and the other half is based upon some simple facts.

    I started building PCs in the mid 90s. Was a total Windows fan boy 100%, and dabbled in Linux. My first tech job I got was a warranty repair shop that also supports Macs. So, I was forced to use them professionally. I always owned a Mac or two just so I could keep up with them for my job, and a lot of the times my job gave me one. So, it is not like I was paying for them.

    Then once my job got serious and I was managing thousands of machines and servers, Mac, Windows and Linux, I really saw how great the Mac platform was. I was able to do everything built in. Telnet, ssh, remote desktop (vnc), to all platforms. I can write code easily for them in shell/bash and python, and with multiple desktops and the ability to run virtual machines and windows apps on my Macs, I realize I am 10x more productive on my Mac and really my PC is just a toy. I use my PC for my HTPC at home and my other PC for a gaming rig. Otherwise I don't do much production work on them.

    The fact that I have all these tools and software available out of the box and many easy to download for my Mac really is a benefit that I don't want to give up. Since Macs can run Windows apps via Crossover and WINE, and dual boot and virtual machines they can literally run petty much every app. I also need a laptop that is powerful and has a long battery time because out in the field I won't always be able to charge up my laptop. I also need it to be compatible with every system I work with (which is all three platforms Win/Linux/OS X) and since out of hte box the Mac is more compliant I chose it.

    I have some funny stories talking to tier 2 enterprise support with Microsoft and the tech having to transfer me because I was remoted into the servers using their version of remote desktop on my Mac....talk about a waste of money with my support contracts....
     
  16. Iceyn1pples

    Iceyn1pples New Member

    Messages:
    107
    @Tla,

    I can, I did, and you were wrong.

    Im sure i have verified myself and backed up my claim. All i see from you in terms of arguments, are excuses and topic changing sentences.

    I read your other posts....too bad you cant give back the time i wasted reading your useless posts...
     
  17. CdnAudiophile

    CdnAudiophile Member

    Messages:
    934
    /thread
     
  18. tlarkin

    tlarkin VIP Member

    Messages:
    12,874
    Yeah ok man, whatever you say. Like I said a billion times already search for my older posts where I actually break down the hardware and build a Mac Pro with a current model and it is almost always near the same price.

    You obviously did not go back and search and find the threads I am talking about
     
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