Mac vs PC

[tlarkin]

Yeah, I'm fully aware of Steve Balmer's douchery, they're about equal in my books.

I realize you can run windows on a mac, but whats the point of getting a mac if you still need to use windows? To pay an inflated hardware price? No thanks, I'll stick to my windows only machines.

Stability and quality control...I guess on paper it looks that way, but I have problems with Macs just like with PCs. The only difference is having to find drivers in Windows, but hell, with the vast amounts of hardware choice out there, and since it's easy to find drivers for most of it, it's a small price to pay.

Plus it's scary how hot the macbook pros get. I even used a cooling pad and it was still too hot to use on a lap. Hey Jobs, air vents, a GOOD thing

Well let me put it into a different perspective for you then...

I manage 7,000 ish macs at work. I have one master image that can load on all of them and then package groups based on make/model or function that will pull down groups of packages based on what I set it as.

Where as before when I was managing 10,000 PCs I had to have about 8 to 9 images per a year for each different configuration because we had many different types of PCs, which increases margin of error when you have to do something 9 times.

Installing software is easy, just drag and drop. In fact OS X is the king of drag and drop. I can drag and drop just about anything into anything and it works. Pretty nifty.

Drivers, almost everything is PnP for the most part. There are some exceptions.

Everything works as advertised out of the box. That is a huge plus.

The power of Unix makes a HUGE difference to me, but I am the sort of user that likes the command lines.

Now, that is not to say that they don't fail or are with out fault. They do so in both cases. However, you must realize that when you design every aspect of a computer from the ground up, from the hardware design, to what chipsets they run, to the coding of the OS you have complete control over everything. Which means that your machine will run better out of the box. From a developer's stand point: If you know everything inside the box hardware wise and you know the standards you can optimize everything from that standard. In return it means higher quality control.

Why run Windows? Why not? Why run linux? If you have the need to run windows you can via a virtual machine or boot camp. It is a choice and an option you have. Some older applications that are legacy may only run in IE 6 or in Windows 2000 or XP, and this gives the user and the company the option of migrating to a Mac and still having the ability to run those legacy Windows apps.

Part for part they aren't over priced either. They just have expensive parts in them. I have had this discussion many times with many different people and none of them agree with me until I get to them to admit that they have expensive parts in them. For example the LED lit LCD monitors in the laptops and iMacs are expensive. You may not need one personally, and you may not want to spend the money on it. You may think that an LED back lit monitor is a waste of money, but that does not change the fact that they are expensive. The only argument you can make against that is that you aren't give the option for the cheaper display. You can't build an iMac part for part (meaning the exact same parts) cheaper than it is to buy an iMac. Trust me I have tried. LED back lit monitors start at like around $400 to $450, and that is included in the iMac.

What you can say, and what I will agree with 100% is that you aren't given the options to build your own. To say they are over priced is wrong, and untrue, but to say you aren't give the cheaper option is right and correct.

Macs are great computers and I own 3 of them. I also own 2 PCs, and they are great computers as well (because they are mine - I dislike other people's computers). My Macs are awesome at what they do and some of the things they do blow Windows out of the water in many aspects. I don't think they are over priced, but I do think they are expensive.

 

[diduknowthat]

I agree with tlarkin. Macs are expensive, but the expensive is justified with what you get. As for the ability to customize, that is one thing that annoys me. It'd be more prone to buying a mac if the starting price was lower, and I was able to customize what I want.

However, what I don't like is when people who don't know anything about computers start to say how good their Mac is. I mean seriously, there are people who don't know ANYTHING about computers trying to tell me how much better their Mac is at everything compared to my PC. Hell, if they actually knew what they're talking about, I'd give them credit, but these people don't know jack about computers... [/rant]

 

[tlarkin]

I agree with tlarkin. Macs are expensive, but the expensive is justified with what you get. As for the ability to customize, that is one thing that annoys me. It'd be more prone to buying a mac if the starting price was lower, and I was able to customize what I want.

However, what I don't like is when people who don't know anything about computers start to say how good their Mac is. I mean seriously, there are people who don't know ANYTHING about computers trying to tell me how much better their Mac is at everything compared to my PC. Hell, if they actually knew what they're talking about, I'd give them credit, but these people don't know jack about computers... [/rant]

That goes both ways. I have been a Mac user for a long time, since the beginning of OS X (technically since OS 8.1 but I didn't like the classic OS), and I can say that there are some things that are just so streamlined and so awesome about OS X that no other OS can touch it. I mean your average user has no idea what happens under the hood at all, and that goes for windows or Mac.

The fact that it is simple, streamlined, and powerful makes a huge statement on the time and effort Apple has put into their systems. There are things I dislike about them, but that will just spawn a rant that I have that is specific to my needs.

 

[speedyink]

Well let me put it into a different perspective for you then...

I manage 7,000 ish macs at work. I have one master image that can load on all of them and then package groups based on make/model or function that will pull down groups of packages based on what I set it as.

Where as before when I was managing 10,000 PCs I had to have about 8 to 9 images per a year for each different configuration because we had many different types of PCs, which increases margin of error when you have to do something 9 times.

I've never had experience with that, nor do I think I shall need to. I've noticed a lot of the features that Mac's tout the most I don't need.

Installing software is easy, just drag and drop. In fact OS X is the king of drag and drop. I can drag and drop just about anything into anything and it works. Pretty nifty.

I can't get excited about drag and drop software installs, I prefer that to stick to file transfers.

Now, that is not to say that they don't fail or are with out fault. They do so in both cases. However, you must realize that when you design every aspect of a computer from the ground up, from the hardware design, to what chipsets they run, to the coding of the OS you have complete control over everything. Which means that your machine will run better out of the box. From a developer's stand point: If you know everything inside the box hardware wise and you know the standards you can optimize everything from that standard. In return it means higher quality control.

I see your point.

Part for part they aren't over priced either. They just have expensive parts in them. I have had this discussion many times with many different people and none of them agree with me until I get to them to admit that they have expensive parts in them. For example the LED lit LCD monitors in the laptops and iMacs are expensive. You may not need one personally, and you may not want to spend the money on it. You may think that an LED back lit monitor is a waste of money, but that does not change the fact that they are expensive. The only argument you can make against that is that you aren't give the option for the cheaper display. You can't build an iMac part for part (meaning the exact same parts) cheaper than it is to buy an iMac. Trust me I have tried. LED back lit monitors start at like around $400 to $450, and that is included in the iMac.

What you can say, and what I will agree with 100% is that you aren't given the options to build your own. To say they are over priced is wrong, and untrue, but to say you aren't give the cheaper option is right and correct.

I agree that they are not over priced, but they definately aren't built with budget in mind. I mean, I picked up my laptop for $1000, and my desktop for $900 (with a Radeon HD2600 Pro). I could never achieve the specs at that price with a Mac. Sure, you get the LED screen, the backlit keyboard, bigger hardware brands, packed in software and a snazzy design, but all those things are not important to me. I don't have a lot of money, I skimp where I can, while still achieving the performance I want.

 

[tlarkin]

I've never had experience with that, nor do I think I shall need to. I've noticed a lot of the features that Mac's tout the most I don't need.

yeah that is just a rant about deploying windows really

I can't get excited about drag and drop software installs, I prefer that to stick to file transfers.

Self contained apps mean no bulky bloated registry, it also means simplicity and easier to troubleshoot and smoother operation. Try installing something on multiple machines and going through a wizard each time, or just pushing out the application remotely and it just works. Every application is actually a folder in OS X. If you right click on the Application and select "package contents" you can drill down into the application itself. There you can tweak and hack configurations or whatever you want, and it is all self contained. So if it breaks, just drag and drop a new copy over it and voila you are all fixed.

I agree that they are not over priced, but they definately aren't built with budget in mind. I mean, I picked up my laptop for $1000, and my desktop for $900 (with a Radeon HD2600 Pro). I could never achieve the specs at that price with a Mac. Sure, you get the LED screen, the backlit keyboard, bigger hardware brands, packed in software and a snazzy design, but all those things are not important to me. I don't have a lot of money, I skimp where I can, while still achieving the performance I want.

Yup and people like you aren't Apple's demographic of customers. They are looking for your average user. Remember your average user isn't going to custom build anything. A business that orders thousands of machines will not custom build them. Custom building PCs is such a small niche market that it doesn't even interest Apple. They may never make a product to your liking or your budget, but that doesn't mean they suck or are over priced.

 

[speedyink]

Self contained apps mean no bulky bloated registry, it also means simplicity and easier to troubleshoot and smoother operation. Try installing something on multiple machines and going through a wizard each time, or just pushing out the application remotely and it just works. Every application is actually a folder in OS X. If you right click on the Application and select "package contents" you can drill down into the application itself. There you can tweak and hack configurations or whatever you want, and it is all self contained. So if it breaks, just drag and drop a new copy over it and voila you are all fixed.

I can see the benefits, though I don't like how some applications install stuff to more than just the application folder (ie adobe programs). I had a hell of a time installing adobe programs for a friend. (I went to install it but it kept telling me that they were already installed from the trials she tried on it)

Yup and people like you aren't Apple's demographic of customers. They are looking for your average user. Remember your average user isn't going to custom build anything. A business that orders thousands of machines will not custom build them. Custom building PCs is such a small niche market that it doesn't even interest Apple. They may never make a product to your liking or your budget, but that doesn't mean they suck or are over priced.

I didn't say they suck, cause they don't. I just personally don't like how they work.

 

[tlarkin]

I can see the benefits, though I don't like how some applications install stuff to more than just the application folder (ie adobe programs). I had a hell of a time installing adobe programs for a friend. (I went to install it but it kept telling me that they were already installed from the trials she tried on it)

That is the exception. Application suites which share resources often also install fonts, and plug ins amongst other shared files in /Library/Application support in OS X. So, yes, Adobe is a pain in the ass to install which is why I use third party installer scripts to install it to my users. I installed about 300 copies of it remotely last year over the network with very little issues, but it wasn't 100% with out issues though.

I didn't say they suck, cause they don't. I just personally don't like how they work.

It comes down to personal preference and the willingness to take the time to fully learn another platform. It is along the same lines of when people try linux for 4 months and decide they don't like it. It takes time and effort to truly learn something. I have been using Linux/Unix for 10 years now and I still learn new stuff all the time. Been using Windows since 3.11 (1992ish?) and I still learn new things about Windows I didn't know, and of course a lot of things change from version to version in every OS, so there is always new stuff to learn.

 

[gamerman4]

I say this thread fails, I will be adding this link to the FAIL thread

 

[tlarkin]

I say this thread fails, I will be adding this link to the FAIL thread

Oh I wasn't aware you are the FAIL police....

 

[gamerman4]

Oh I wasn't aware you are the FAIL police....

orly?

 

[brentduo]

I have used pc's forever and I can't remember the last time a virus ever screwed up my system, I don't think one ever has. If apple just told the truth no one would buy their product. They are a ripoff, and have just as many problems as a pc. Plus they don't play games. The whole company gets off on ripping on windows. I'd rather be the guy on the left with a job rather than this kid on the right surfing the web and playing with himself.

 

[tlarkin]

I have used pc's forever and I can't remember the last time a virus ever screwed up my system, I don't think one ever has. If apple just told the truth no one would buy their product. They are a ripoff, and have just as many problems as a pc. Plus they don't play games. The whole company gets off on ripping on windows. I'd rather be the guy on the left with a job rather than this kid on the right surfing the web and playing with himself.

uneducated, bias, opinion. Sorry I have been using Macs and PCs (including every version of windows since 3.11 to current, and Linux) for a very long time and they both have their merits and they both have their flaws.

I have already logically outlined the pros of owning a Mac in this thread and many other and I do so with little bias and try to be logical about it. Just because you haven't thought you ever got a virus doesn't meant that you don't have one. Trojans and keyloggers really don't show any signs of being on your system. There is also a plethora of malware that does the same thing.

You will only know if you are virus free if you run regular scans and even then that is no guarantee. Really the only way to surely know is to monitor all your processes and network traffic transparently and make sure you know what everything is doing. There are definitely sneaky viruses and the like out there that you may never know you had.

 

[brentduo]

It's not uneducated at all, I don't hate MACS, just hate the uneducated mass following they have by people who think pc's suck. I have used both, I have a pc at home and I use a MAC in school in my photoshop class. It works great for that. I am not saying I haven't had viruses before, I have had many. But I have yet to have one that has screwed up my system at all. So I just don't see the spyware/ virus argument as a reason to use a MAC. Just run antivirus and its taken care of. It's just basic maintenance. My girlfriend for instance, Wants a MAC notebook. She wants one that costs about $1500. She claims pc's suck because thats what she hears on the comercials. While a decent windows laptop costs $600.

Another thing, my school is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on MAC machines that are not upgradeable it pisses me of. They can't pay their teachers enough money to teach yet they go out and buy these overpriced machines. They just picked up a batch of MAC's. Already they are having problems with photoshop and illustrator rendering. They take forever.

 

[tlarkin]

It's not uneducated at all, I don't hate MACS, just hate the uneducated mass following they have by people who think pc's suck. I have used both, I have a pc at home and I use a MAC in school in my photoshop class. It works great for that. I am not saying I haven't had viruses before, I have had many. But I have yet to have one that has screwed up my system at all. So I just don't see the spyware/ virus argument as a reason to use a MAC. Just run antivirus and its taken care of. It's just basic maintenance. My girlfriend for instance, Wants a MAC notebook. She wants one that costs about $1500. She claims pc's suck because thats what she hears on the comercials. While a decent windows laptop costs $600.

Another thing, my school is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on MAC machines that are not upgradeable it pisses me of. They can't pay their teachers enough money to teach yet they go out and buy these overpriced machines. They just picked up a batch of MAC's. Already they are having problems with photoshop and illustrator rendering. They take forever.

It is Mac not MAC, MAC refers to the Media Access Control on a NIC. Also, you are missing the whole point of Macintosh computer, which I have clearly already pointed out. Apple is not trying to sell to those who build their own machines, they are selling to the average user, just like every other major company.

Also, their machines last a lot longer due to the quality control. I had a 6 year old G4 running 10.5, their brand new OS. A 6 year old PC won't run Vista very well at all. The all-in-ones and the minis you can't upgrade. Their full towers you can. Then again, who upgrades? You are failing to see that they aren't going to cater to those type of customers that upgrade. People don't upgrade they just buy or build new.

When you upgrade and get a new mobo and proc, you have to get new memory most likely, and new PSU, and if you have an AGP mobo then you have to buy a new video card. Technology changes every 3 to 4 years anyway so upgrading is almost a moot point. It is more cost effective to build or buy new in many cases.

Apple is not trying to sell you a computer, they are trying to sell the average user and the average user doesn't even know how to run software updates. Trust me, I know this personally. Now, Apple offers a complete out of the box solution that does so much and it does it in a simple matter. No other platform can touch them on that. So, to the person who wants to create on a computer or wants to just do basic things and doesn't want to worry about learning deeply how to use it the Mac is great. For the advanced user it is great too because you get a full blown Unix under the hood.

 

[patrickv]

can never understand how threads like these remain active.
Such will ALWAYS start a war of stupidity

 

[gamerman4]

Even though this thread fails, I must comment

It's not uneducated at all, I don't hate MACS, just hate the uneducated mass following they have by people who think pc's suck. I have used both, I have a pc at home and I use a MAC in school in my photoshop class. It works great for that. I am not saying I haven't had viruses before, I have had many. But I have yet to have one that has screwed up my system at all. So I just don't see the spyware/ virus argument as a reason to use a MAC. Just run antivirus and its taken care of. It's just basic maintenance. My girlfriend for instance, Wants a MAC notebook. She wants one that costs about $1500. She claims pc's suck because thats what she hears on the comercials. While a decent windows laptop costs $600.

Another thing, my school is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on MAC machines that are not upgradeable it pisses me of. They can't pay their teachers enough money to teach yet they go out and buy these overpriced machines. They just picked up a batch of MAC's. Already they are having problems with photoshop and illustrator rendering. They take forever.

Here is what it boils down to:

Hardware side:
Apple computers give you everything anyone would want in a computer regardless of whether it would actually be useful to any particular person (i.e. if someone doesn't own an external HDD or a camera and never plans to get one then firewire is pretty much useless for them).

PCs are made to be tailored to a particular person, you basically just pick and choose what you want and you don't pay for anything extra that you don't want. This can also be a disadvantage because a user might not realise what an advantage a certain feature might be so they don't get it and might regret not getting it later. Shopping for a PC is a little harder because of this but if you know what you want the PC to do then you can get one that has all the features you want.

Software side:
OSX and Windows are both being used widely enough that most major software supports them both so for the major things someone might want (like photoshop for instance), both OSs provide equal ground in compatibility.

Windows has a slight edge in the ambiguous, vague, and specific areas of software where the user base is so small that there are very few things made to do what they want to do. Usually these programs with small user bases only support one OS because there are simply not enough programmers (often it is just one guy) to write support for all OSs. OSX has plenty of small programs but since Windows is more widely used, it has a software library loaded with tiny unknown pieces of software.

 

[patrickv]

It's not uneducated at all, I don't hate MACS, just hate the uneducated mass following they have by people who think pc's suck

lol it's just a commercial man

 

[tlarkin]

Even though this thread fails, I must comment



Here is what it boils down to:

Hardware side:
Apple computers give you everything anyone would want in a computer regardless of whether it would actually be useful to any particular person (i.e. if someone doesn't own an external HDD or a camera and never plans to get one then firewire is pretty much useless for them).

PCs are made to be tailored to a particular person, you basically just pick and choose what you want and you don't pay for anything extra that you don't want. This can also be a disadvantage because a user might not realise what an advantage a certain feature might be so they don't get it and might regret not getting it later. Shopping for a PC is a little harder because of this but if you know what you want the PC to do then you can get one that has all the features you want.

Software side:
OSX and Windows are both being used widely enough that most major software supports them both so for the major things someone might want (like photoshop for instance), both OSs provide equal ground in compatibility.

Windows has a slight edge in the ambiguous, vague, and specific areas of software where the user base is so small that there are very few things made to do what they want to do. Usually these programs with small user bases only support one OS because there are simply not enough programmers (often it is just one guy) to write support for all OSs. OSX has plenty of small programs but since Windows is more widely used, it has a software library loaded with tiny unknown pieces of software.

Yup, except I would like to add that it also applies to OS X. There are plenty of users that only use and swear by Final Cut Studio and Logic Audio, only available on the Mac. So the niche works both ways.

Also, and while I totally agree with you, that you can custom build a PC and get way more flexibility, but when you buy a PC say from Dell, HP, IBM, etc, you are in the same boat as when you buy an Apple. You may be able to add a few upgrades, and you may be able to BTO (build to order) but even Apple lets you BTO.

Apple also uses the most expensive parts in their machines. They use ECC RAM in their Mac Pros, which is ungodly expensive. Not every user may need that but you are definitely getting what you pay for.

I mean it is like buying a Porsche. You aren't going to buy a Porsche and then want to cut corners and put Volkswagen parts in it. You are going to want Porsche parts. It kind of goes with a Mac. Yes they are expensive, but they aren't cheaply built either.

Their tech support is also still based in California, so you aren't transferred to some guy named "Jim" who has a heavy central Asian accent.

 

[gamerman4]

Yup, except I would like to add that it also applies to OS X. There are plenty of users that only use and swear by Final Cut Studio and Logic Audio, only available on the Mac. So the niche works both ways.

Also, and while I totally agree with you, that you can custom build a PC and get way more flexibility, but when you buy a PC say from Dell, HP, IBM, etc, you are in the same boat as when you buy an Apple. You may be able to add a few upgrades, and you may be able to BTO (build to order) but even Apple lets you BTO.

Well Final Cut is made by Apple so it is understandable that it is Mac only.

It is also true that since Macs already come with a million bells and whistles, there is less to configure but when you buy from Dell or HP, you can usually get it cheaper by finding a model that doesn't have, for example, bluetooth, and configuring that model. The side-effect of that is that you have to find the right model which isn't exactly difficult since they usually only have a few in each category. If you did want bluetooth, you would just have to either spend a lil more on the model that comes with it or just by a usb bluetooth adapter.

 

[tlarkin]

Well Final Cut is made by Apple so it is understandable that it is Mac only.

It is also true that since Macs already come with a million bells and whistles, there is less to configure but when you buy from Dell or HP, you can usually get it cheaper by finding a model that doesn't have, for example, bluetooth, and configuring that model. The side-effect of that is that you have to find the right model which isn't exactly difficult since they usually only have a few in each category. If you did want bluetooth, you would just have to either spend a lil more on the model that comes with it or just by a usb bluetooth adapter.

Sure but when you do that it costs more than a Mac. You buy a stripped down PC and then third party add all the features to equal a Mac you pay way more, I mean sales tax alone on each item would increase the cost a bunch.

That is why you can't build a PC spec for spec comparable to a Mac and make it cheaper. It just doesn't happen. I have tried it, and I didn't believe it myself. I used to think they were a bit over priced as well. Then I tried actually building one with the exact same parts, and they came out the same or more expensive every time.