Plethera of Questions

[Stephanie2008]

Warning: You cannot really call me a noob, because that assumes I am a 'beginner', when actually I am more like 'not technologically oriented'. I understand that some of you find people like me frustrating. Not only am I basically computer illiterate, but I have not much interest attempting to become technologically oriented. I will not be building my own computer. Things that you take for granted will be over my head, so please don't assume I understand the basics. Feel free not to read further if this is a turn off to you. I understand.

Context: I have been limping along on a defective W98 HP since the time flat screen first came out, basically. Somehow, I have nursed this beast through more near-deaths than anyone can believe, on the promise that I would buy myself a gaming computer when the beast finally died. It is not cooperating with my death wishes. I've researched a new computer many times, but always managed to revive the darn thing and it seemed it was NEVER a good time to buy a computer, because there is always something coming just around the corner that will make things either better or cheaper.

However, the time is way past due for a new computer and things have deteriorated so badly that the computer is mostly an exercise of patience and frustration, alternatively.

I've spent the better part of two weeks now researching things I don't understand well and likely never will. In that research, I came across a company that gets good reviews and is reputed to be able to make basic gaming computers that compete with DYI'er prices better than anyone else (Cyber Power).

Goal: What I basically want is a solid computer that will play games well (mostly questish kinds of games, graphically intensive, not just the new ones but the ones I haven't been able to play on this beast for years now, like Icewind Dales, WoW, etc) without wasting money or becoming immediately obsolete.

The price range is basically $1000-2000'ish, I'm in the US (Alaska, though) technically, and I'll need a monitor.

However, I have some significant questions that I need to sort out first and I was hoping to tap into expertise here if people are willing to help out someone like me, knowing I will not be building. Sorry to bombard with questions, feel free to pass or pick and choose which questions appeal.

1. The first, and perhaps central dilemma, is which of three ways to go:

A. Skip SLI altogether and the know that I might need a new computer in just a few years to catch up with duo or quad or whatever the heck is to follow. Get 4 mg memory and an 8800 series video card, spend a little more to make it cool and quiet, and call it good. Something like an upgraded this: http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/system/Gamer_Infinity_7500/

B. Buy something that is SLI ready but doesn't have it yet, with the aforementioned memory, video card, fan and cooling upgrades. Something like an upgraded this:
http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/system/Gamer_Infinity_8900_Deluxe/

C. Bite the bullet and add the SLI and second video card now. Is this overkill for me? Something like..
http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/system/Gamer_Infinity_SLI/

Many of the other questions tie into this dilemma. Basically, I don't want to spend a lot of money -and- become immediately obsolete. One or the other, please. I can live with the idea of buying a computer that is really good for NOW and say no on the bells and whistles for the future - or spending money for future add-ons if there is a reason to believe they will actually be worth doing in the long run. I don't think I am willing to make "upgrades", though, that will mean I cannot now enjoy the games that are out there now and over the past few years that I haven't been able to enjoy, for something that may or may not happen in the future. In other words, compatibility is a big thing for me, along with future viability. I have to figure out a way to balance these two, perhaps competing, issues.

2. Vista versus XP - Right now I am leaning towards going with XP, based on the assumption that existing games are more compatible, Vista is still buggy and it is possible to play Direct 10X games with XP. Is this sound thinking?

3. How important/good is liquid cooling for people who game a lot (though not well) or leave their computers on a lot? Is there less risk of dust problems with liquid cooling? Are there risks?

4. Are there compatibility issues regarding SLI systems or SLI ready systems, i.e., with games or other software? I know that you have to go with a 64 bit OS if you use a SLI system. Does that mean I couldn't play these existing games with an SLI or SLI ready system?


I apologize in advance if these questions are silly or my dilemma inconceivable to anyone. I'm seriously hung up here, though, and I could really use some help.

Thanks so much for anyone who has gotten to the bottom of all this. I'll work on my brevity.

 

[paratwa]

For one, skip SLI. SLI is a waste of money. 1 killer 8800GT video card would be all you need for 90% of games. And if you decide that you really want SLI, then get both cards now. Because if you get 1 now, and later on you decide to get another one, you find that newer cards have come out that are faster than 2 of your cards combined.

Water cooling is for people that overclock their systems. If you are not going to be doing that, then a standard air cooled system will be fine.

XP will not technically play DX10 games in DX10 mode. They will play them in DX9. But there are a couple of games that you can hack and make them play in the high settings of DX10. You really need Vista for DX10.

No you do not need a 64bit system to SLI. 32 bit runs it very well.

And just a warning. Cyberpower has only a C rating from the Better Business Bureau.
http://www.labbb.org/BBBWeb/Forms/Business/CompanyReportPage_Expository.aspx?CompanyID=13080817

"Complainants allege the company sells defective merchandise, and fails to provide warranty service as agreed. Some complainants allege they receive merchandise which is inoperable or defective at the time of delivery. In other cases customers complain they return defective components two or three times for the same repair, or, repaired items are retuned without the repairs performed, in the same condition as when they were sent in for repair. Complainants are generally dissatisfied with the level of customer service provided, claiming they are unable to reach company personnel by phone, and e-mails are not responded to. Some complainants who request refunds on defective products are dissatisfied with the company's policy of deducting S & H charges from the refund amount."

 

[tlarkin]

Warning: You cannot really call me a noob, because that assumes I am a 'beginner', when actually I am more like 'not technologically oriented'. I understand that some of you find people like me frustrating. Not only am I basically computer illiterate, but I have not much interest attempting to become technologically oriented. I will not be building my own computer. Things that you take for granted will be over my head, so please don't assume I understand the basics. Feel free not to read further if this is a turn off to you. I understand.

Context: I have been limping along on a defective W98 HP since the time flat screen first came out, basically. Somehow, I have nursed this beast through more near-deaths than anyone can believe, on the promise that I would buy myself a gaming computer when the beast finally died. It is not cooperating with my death wishes. I've researched a new computer many times, but always managed to revive the darn thing and it seemed it was NEVER a good time to buy a computer, because there is always something coming just around the corner that will make things either better or cheaper.

It is never really a good time to buy unless you closely watch the market and buy right after price drops if you are looking to maximize your budget.

I've spent the better part of two weeks now researching things I don't understand well and likely never will. In that research, I came across a company that gets good reviews and is reputed to be able to make basic gaming computers that compete with DYI'er prices better than anyone else (Cyber Power).

Goal: What I basically want is a solid computer that will play games well (mostly questish kinds of games, graphically intensive, not just the new ones but the ones I haven't been able to play on this beast for years now, like Icewind Dales, WoW, etc) without wasting money or becoming immediately obsolete.

Never touched a Cyber Power that I can recall, so haven't dealt with them much. When it comes down to the bare performance of a gaming rig, most of it comes from the video card. So, you could feasibly get away with buying a decent prebuilt system and upgrading the video card to a nice DX10 card.

The price range is basically $1000-2000'ish, I'm in the US (Alaska, though) technically, and I'll need a monitor.

Well, building it yourself will save a few dollars in some cases and in others it won't. If you find the right Dell coupon you can't beat their prices. I don't know how Dell does it, they are taking losses to up their sales. Shipping to Alaska may be a problem, because I know some places only ship to the lower 48 states.

1. The first, and perhaps central dilemma, is which of three ways to go:

A. Skip SLI altogether and the know that I might need a new computer in just a few years to catch up with duo or quad or whatever the heck is to follow. Get 4 mg memory and an 8800 series video card, spend a little more to make it cool and quiet, and call it good. Something like an upgraded this: http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/system/Gamer_Infinity_7500/

B. Buy something that is SLI ready but doesn't have it yet, with the aforementioned memory, video card, fan and cooling upgrades. Something like an upgraded this:
http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/system/Gamer_Infinity_8900_Deluxe/

C. Bite the bullet and add the SLI and second video card now. Is this overkill for me? Something like..
http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/system/Gamer_Infinity_SLI/

Many of the other questions tie into this dilemma. Basically, I don't want to spend a lot of money -and- become immediately obsolete. One or the other, please. I can live with the idea of buying a computer that is really good for NOW and say no on the bells and whistles for the future - or spending money for future add-ons if there is a reason to believe they will actually be worth doing in the long run. I don't think I am willing to make "upgrades", though, that will mean I cannot now enjoy the games that are out there now and over the past few years that I haven't been able to enjoy, for something that may or may not happen in the future. In other words, compatibility is a big thing for me, along with future viability. I have to figure out a way to balance these two, perhaps competing, issues.

First off SLI is pretty much a marketing scheme and you are better off buying one high end video card than more than one of the lesser cards and putting them in SLI.

2. Vista versus XP - Right now I am leaning towards going with XP, based on the assumption that existing games are more compatible, Vista is still buggy and it is possible to play Direct 10X games with XP. Is this sound thinking?

XP if you want to run those older legacy games, plus the OS is always something you can upgrade later on. I have a favorite game called Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 and they don't run in vista at all. I know the games are old and archaic, but hey they are some of my all time favorites and I still to this day love playing them.

3. How important/good is liquid cooling for people who game a lot (though not well) or leave their computers on a lot? Is there less risk of dust problems with liquid cooling? Are there risks?

Its not important, unless you want to seriously over clock your system; and yes you always run a risk of failure when using non standard configurations like liquid cooling. I would stick to a standard configuration and make sure your fans are built right. You basically want air sucking from the front and exhausting out the back, you want good air flow. Good air flow will be sufficient enough. I have never used water cooling in my life.

4. Are there compatibility issues regarding SLI systems or SLI ready systems, i.e., with games or other software? I know that you have to go with a 64 bit OS if you use a SLI system. Does that mean I couldn't play these existing games with an SLI or SLI ready system?

Again, SLI is a marketing scheme. To break it down for you, it basically puts two cards into parallel processing mode, so it allows more bandwidth to be processed. Now, if they had dual core GPUs they could run in what is known as distributive processing mode, and they could load balance commands. SLI is not going to give you that much performance increase but it will cost you a lot more money. There were a lot of stability problems in the beginning of SLI but now for the most part things seem stable. It is up to you if you want to spend the extra money to get a very small increase in performance. Sometimes, you don't even get an increase so its a waste of money in my opinion.

 

[Stephanie2008]

For one, skip SLI. SLI is a waste of money.

Thanks. That's the kind of thing I need to know.

Water cooling is for people that overclock their systems. If you are not going to be doing that, then a standard air cooled system will be fine.

Interesting. I had heard that it was for systems that ran hot because of games, but no one mentioned just over-clocked systems. Is this a terrible time for me to mention I smoke at my computer and am wondering if it would help protect my system a bit to have liquid cooling rather than fans?

XP will not technically play DX10 games in DX10 mode. They will play them in DX9. But there are a couple of games that you can hack and make them play in the high settings of DX10. You really need Vista for DX10.

Am I going to be hurting any time soon not to have DX10? Can I play older games if I have DX10/Vista easily?

No you do not need a 64bit system to SLI. 32 bit runs it very well.

Ah, see, this is where that little bit of (confused) knowledge is causing me problems. I just re-read, and it seems it is recommended for 4GM RAM systems, not SLI systems.

And just a warning. Cyberpower has only a C rating from the Better Business Bureau.
http://www.labbb.org/BBBWeb/Forms/Business/CompanyReportPage_Expository.aspx?CompanyID=13080817

Ain't that just the pits? *sigh* I read all these great reviews, along with customer feedback on their site that indicated that even those who had problems ended up being very happy with their systems and the price. Hmm...any other ideas for a company?

Thanks so much for your responses!

Editted to create a typo. Apparently, this is making me go dylexic, as costumers are surely not the same as customers...

 

[paratwa]

Anything over 3.25 gigs of ram will not be seen by a 32 bit OS. To access over 3.25 you need a 64 bit OS.

If you decide on running XP, get the 32 bit OS and 2 gigs of ram would be good for it. If you get the 64bit version of Vista then 4 gigs would be good. With the 32bit version of Vista 2 gigs would be the minimum amount of ram you would want for it, since Vista is a memory hog.

I smoke at my computer as well, no problems other than you need to use some canned air to blow out the system every couple of months, but you should do that anyways since dust collects fast even if you don't smoke, and dust can lead to over heating problems.

A couple of people here on these forums have bought from Cyberpower with no problems, I just wanted to make sure you know that they don't have the best rating.

Since I always build my own systems, I really have no idea who would be a good company to buy from. Stay away from Dell and Gateway though.

 

[Stephanie2008]

It is never really a good time to buy unless you closely watch the market and buy right after price drops if you are looking to maximize your budget.

Isn't that the truth?

Never touched a Cyber Power that I can recall, so haven't dealt with them much. When it comes down to the bare performance of a gaming rig, most of it comes from the video card. So, you could feasibly get away with buying a decent prebuilt system and upgrading the video card to a nice DX10 card.

Hm...I thought I needed something like a NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT 512MB video card. What kind of card would be DX10? Don't I need Vista to use DX10 anyway? So confused....sorry for the probably inane questions.

Well, building it yourself will save a few dollars in some cases and in others it won't. If you find the right Dell coupon you can't beat their prices. I don't know how Dell does it, they are taking losses to up their sales. Shipping to Alaska may be a problem, because I know some places only ship to the lower 48 states.

The problem is, I don't want to buy from Dell. Especially now that they have out-sourced their Costumer Service to India. I have a problem with that philosophically, but also, just on a practical level, there are -enough- language barriers for me in talking about these computer issues without throwing in another. Alas, I am all too familiar with the shipping issues living up here - as well as the local choices available.

First off SLI is pretty much a marketing scheme and you are better off buying one high end video card than more than one of the lesser cards and putting them in SLI.

Thanks for that. You two are in agreement on this one, too, which is nice.

XP if you want to run those older legacy games, plus the OS is always something you can upgrade later on. I know the games are old and archaic, but hey they are some of my all time favorites and I still to this day love playing them.

I do love playing games, and there's a whole list of things I've not been able to buy that I'd really like to get my hands on before moving forward. This is the incentive that keeps me slogging through all this. Fun, fun.

Its not important, unless you want to seriously over clock your system; and yes you always run a risk of failure when using non standard configurations like liquid cooling. I would stick to a standard configuration and make sure your fans are built right. You basically want air sucking from the front and exhausting out the back, you want good air flow. Good air flow will be sufficient enough. I have never used water cooling in my life.

Okay, great. Though does liquid cooling reduce the risk of dust/smoke in the system? I know I shouldn't smoke at my computer... but I do and with 8 months of Winter, 3 cats and a 1,000 SF house, that isn't likely to change until I relocate or quit smoking.

Again, SLI is a marketing scheme....Now, if they had dual core GPUs they could run in what is known as distributive processing mode, and they could load balance commands. SLI is not going to give you that much performance increase but it will cost you a lot more money....It is up to you if you want to spend the extra money to get a very small increase in performance. Sometimes, you don't even get an increase so its a waste of money in my opinion.

I don't want to spend the money to get neglible or no gains. My concern is basically the future - do you think they are going to come out with GPU's that do this distributive processing mode thing you are referring to and SLI (duo or quad) is going to become a must down the road soon? I just worry about becoming obsolete, you know?

I really appreciate the help here. You have no idea how much.

 

[Stephanie2008]

Sorry for the double post, but I'm reading the dark side of Cyber Power reviews and it is beyond frightening. Back to the drawing board, it seems.

 

[paratwa]

Do you know someone that is good with computers that you would trust to build you one if you bought the parts? You could get a much better system doing it that way for your money.

 

[Stephanie2008]

Do you know someone that is good with computers that you would trust to build you one if you bought the parts? You could get a much better system doing it that way for your money.

Not really, but that's an avenue it looks like I might have to explore now, along with seeing what other options are available on the net and whether I can find a private business in town that might build custom computers, I guess.

Gah, it's just a lot of work in circles, isn't it? *swoon and laugh*

 

[tlarkin]

I think the next big thing in video card technology will be multiple core processors for the GPU on the video card itself. Then it can load balance and distribute as need be, and can handle a lot more at once.

I also agree, you have to know somebody who can build a computer. Its honestly not all that hard. All you do is assemble parts in a box, which are keyed or mapped anyway so its hard to install them wrong. Like you have to force it in the wrong way usually to do so. I think that loading an OS is almost harder than actually building a computer physically. Not to alter your opinions, but I think it is something to consider.

 

[Stephanie2008]

Hi, again.

I'm not sure if I should continue in this thread or make a new one, but I think I've found someone who might be willing/able to build me a computer.

It seems buying one that has what I want/need would mean spending a lot of $$$ for a custom-ish build given I want XP, given Cyberpower is too scary to gamble with given my level of knowledge and the need to find a reliable company that can deliver something solid and ready to go.

From my limited knowledge, it seems there are two ways to go here:

1. Build a very basic but solid XP system that has the 8800 GT video card and good enough ram (2 MG?) that is not expandable, expecting it to hold me good for a few years. (This seems like a viable option given the technology seems to be on the cusp yet again of major, major changes not far down the pike)

2. Spend more money to get future expandability with the knowledge that it may end up being a waste of money depending on how the trends play out and how prices follow, i.e., SLI ready, etc.

As a reminder, I am basically wanting a 'good' gaming computer that I can play games that are not only recent, but have come out over the past years....without the frustration of, lag, fuzzy screens, lock ups, etc. (I haven't been able to play anything graphic on this computer for years and I'd love to play questish games like Black and White series, Icewind Dale, check out WoW finally). Other than that, just to do my internet/basic word processing/etc...

I will need a monitor. I will need to buy the OS. Keyboard (like the idea of it being under-lit with a dimmer) and mouse (I'm addicted to rollball mouses that don't require me to move the mouse around), though I can buy those separate. I'd like to get the little Bose speakers, again, that can be separate. But I need everything from scratch, basically.

As to the price range, that depends. I'm willing to go as high as I need to in order for the money to make sense and for me to end up with something solid without wasting my cash. I guess the price depends on whether I go with more option #1 or #2? I'm not sure what's reasonable here, but $1000'ish for option #1 and $1500'ish for option #2 sound right?

For cases, I'd like to go with something that is stylish and easy to clean, something that has good cooling and is quiet. I don't want something that looks like something a teen mega-gamer would be envied for (no offense, that's just not my niche). I don't want a huge case, but am willing to get one if I need it for future expandability and/or cooling. I've shopped a bit and been lurking around a bunch of places and I do like:

Antec P182 Gun Metal Black 0.8mm cold rolled steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129025


I know I want the 8800GT card and I -think- 2 RAM should be enough for what I want?

Anyone want to take a stab at convincing me which way to go and mocking up a build for me?

I really appreciate your sound advice so far - and for steering me away from that scary, scary Cyberpower. I'm just not sophisticated enough to fight with them if there were to be problems...

Thanks again!

 

[oscaryu1]

1. Build a very basic but solid XP system that has the 8800 GT video card and good enough ram (2 MG?) that is not expandable, expecting it to hold me good for a few years. (This seems like a viable option given the technology seems to be on the cusp yet again of major, major changes not far down the pike)

2GB you mean.

2. Spend more money to get future expandability with the knowledge that it may end up being a waste of money depending on how the trends play out and how prices follow, i.e., SLI ready, etc.

Wait for the 45nm's.

 

[Pyrox920]

Basically, the new Processors come out in a month or two (maybe sooner), and that's when your going to to want to buy it. Have you ever put together a shelf, using the instruction manual? Build a computer is no harder. The hardest part is deciding what to buy, and we're all willing to give you an exact list of what you need.

You should get a good computer now that you won't need to upgrade for a while. Get 2GB RAM and an 8800gt like you said, along with a new intel Quad-core when they come out, and don't worry about SLI. You can tell that everyone agrees, SLI sucks.

So just keep an eye on the forums and you'll see when the new processors come out (or do they already have a date?), then we will give you the exact items to order, then you will build it yourself using an online guide, such as this one.

 

[Stephanie2008]

You guys have way, way, WAY too much faith in me and are not necessarily comprehending the prefaced warning I gave at the beginning of this thread.

So, I really should wait for these new processors? Even if I am limping along on a very, very problematic computer? That's going to mean March/April, potentially, to have it running?

Also, Newegg won't ship my computer case to Alaska, where I live.

Is whining allowed? If not, just skip right past this next part.

I think I have now spent something like 80 hours trying to research and feel no closer to owning a computer. I cannot even seem to get the GB/MG/MB initials right yet *laugh*

 

[oscaryu1]

You guys have way, way, WAY too much faith in me and are not necessarily comprehending the prefaced warning I gave at the beginning of this thread.

So, I really should wait for these new processors? Even if I am limping along on a very, very problematic computer? That's going to mean March/April, potentially, to have it running?

Also, Newegg won't ship my computer case to Alaska, where I live.

Is whining allowed? If not, just skip right past this next part.

I think I have now spent something like 80 hours trying to research and feel no closer to owning a computer. I cannot even seem to get the GB/MG/MB initials right yet *laugh*

8 bits -> 1 Byte -> 1000 bytes -> 1 megabyte -> 1000 megabytes -> 1 gigabyte -> 1000 gigabytes -> 1 terabyte -> 1000 terabytes -> 1 petabyte (I think...)

Anyways, you don't need to know anything to build one.