Should I go Mac?

tlarkin

VIP Member
Apple does not do "everything" in house. Some of the previous generation Macbooks were manufactured by Asus. The new ones are most likely manufactured by Quanta and Foxconn. What I quoted was their net profit margin...meaning after everything is said and done, this is what they make. It's higher than any other company I could find, though IBM wasn't far behind.
Apple still designs every aspect. They don't make the Intel chipset either or the processor, Intel does. However, they engineer everything about their systems. Like I said earlier, there are only really like 5 actual major manufacturers in the world. Every computer component is made by them. That doesn't mean they use the same quality parts and that does not mean they all have the same quality engineering.


I didn't realize your workplace was so large...apologies. I can see the use of it there. Still, you know as well as I do that most non-commercial networks support B/G. The average consumer will likely use an A-only network very rarely, if at all. And if it's really that big of a deal to the owner, it doesn't cost a whole lot to buy an a/b/g/n card and install it...
Regardless, it is still a feature that would cost extra, so any PC comparison better have it, or better have the cost of an upgrade included when comparing it to a Mac. That is my whole point of why a Mac is not over priced.

Fair enough. I did say that it most likely isn't as good. Tell me, though, what is the G73's touch pad made of?
Not glass, and rubber wears down and does not age well.


My point exactly. It's useful for his sort of thing, but the average user of a gaming laptop won't be doing that type of stuff. They chose to drop Firewire in favor of other features that gamers would want. Same with Expresscard.
Again, if your PC laptop doesn't have it, you need to factor in a cost of upgrade when comparing to a Mac.

Fair enough, then. If you want things that raise production cost, add a low range driver, on-the-fly overclocking, a 7200RPM hard drive(optional dual 500GB), a second 2.5" SATA bay, two more DIMMs, a second video output, an optional Blu-Ray drive, an EAX 4.0 compatible sound card, a numpad, and a standard lithium-ion battery to the macbook and see what happens to the cost of it.
This makes no sense, no laptop comes with any of that standard. Maybe the high end Sager laptops that have two hard drives in them, but those are meant for gaming and not a very practical laptop. By definition a laptop is a mobile computer, and battery life is suppose to last a long time. The only thing Apple has yet to adopt is bluray. That does suck for Apple customers. However, apple has HDMI out, which includes 7.1 audio, on every single computer they make. They also have optical audio out. Can support up to 8gigs of RAM, oh and they can also support 500gig SSD drives (if you want to drop $1500 on a 500gig SSD drive that is). Every laptop has a numpad, unless you are talking about a separate num pad on the side? Over clocking on the fly is the dumbest feature for a laptop, sorry not buying it.


It doesn't translate well into real-world performance, but it does translate fairly well into power usage, which was the point pf that comment.
What? That doesn't make any sense. OK, I will give you this. You are rendering a giant file in say Maya, OK, yeah it will render faster with i9, but the Macbook Pro has an i5 in it. I don't get where you get this 30% faster crap, plus Windows is the WORST operating system in the world when it comes to managing resources. It takes more memory and more CPU cycles to run Windows than it does any other OS. That is a fact.

Gamers would do that. Again, this thing isn't made for long battery life. It's a portable gaming system. Performance matters more than portability. It'll most likelly be plugged in while gaming. If battery life is that big of an issue for the owner, they can just buy a second battery...it'd take, what, a minute at most to shut down, swap them out, and power up again?
So you are comparing a small niche market? Your arguments are weak at best. Most laptop users don't game on their laptop. I sure as hell don't and I am a gamer. Most laptop users want mobility. Most laptop users who use their laptop professionally for their job (like me) want on the fly access to a mobile computer. So what does Apple do? They make a laptop for most users, not some niche market for gaming. Apple did sort of go into a niche with the Macbook Air and the iPad, but the iPad is not a laptop, and not comparable. You should compare that to eReaders and other touch screen devices. So, for you to meet the Macbook Pros extensive and impressive battery life your solution is to buy a second battery? Thus, raising the cost of the PC laptop you are comparing.

For $750, that'd have to be a Vaio E-series. E stands for Eco...they're built using "green" technologies. The shell is recycled bottles, so it's going to be a bit flimsier than usual.
It was a model that came with a triple license of software which is why I chose it over the other ones they were looking at. I actually tried getting them a Mac, but they wanted to save $200 by getting the Sony. It came with licenses for XP Pro, Vista and 7 business. It was right before 7 came out so if you bought it you got the free 7 upgrade my mailing something in to Sony. I chose that one because I knew XP was getting old, and I hated Vista and was hoping 7 would be leaps and bounds better. I have no clue if it was made of recycled stuff, and this was like maybe a year or even two years ago. Hard to gauge when that was.


And actually, Aluminum will suffer from permanent deformation before most plastics will. I'm not saying that cheaper plastic is a better choice, and I'm certainly not saying that apple's shells are low quality, but it's not a clear-cut case of aluminum=good and plastic=bad.
Hold a cigarette lighter to plastic and then to aluminum, see which permanently deforms first.

Again, the laptop I mentioned is not built for ultra-high mobility. People DO buy it for power. I could say "Show me a Macbook that comes anywhere close to what the G73's can do." and we'd be here for another week. But that isn't the point. You cannot compare a Bentley Continental to a Saleen S7 apples-to-apples, but they are both equally top-notch vehicles.
You can't really use car analogies for computers either, but I get your point. If I were to buy a PC laptop today, I would go buy a Lenovo or an Asus, as I think they are good machines. My whole point the whole time in every thread though, is that you cannot compare the two, because you have to add so many extra features to the PC to make it comparable to the Macbook pro. Yes, it being 5lbs and under 1 inch thick are huge features. Most users want light weight and portable laptops. Some days I have several meetings across town in different locations. I don't want to haul around some heavy thick ass laptop, which battery only lasts 2 hours (meaning every time I relocate I gotta recharge) and it runs loud because of the massive cooling it needs. Take a loud computer into a meeting, people will get sick of you pretty quickly. You keep comparing everything to gamers. Gaming laptops have a niche market, and guess what, people don't typically buy gaming laptops for professional use. They buy Macs or they buy business class laptops, which are light weight, and have longer battery life. If you want to compare your Asus, you need to find one with in spec of the Mac, including size and weight. Then compare specs, and last price and adjust pricing for whatever features either lack over the other. This is what I do and I get called a fan boy because I try to make a non biased opinion on the comparison. Where as you don't use facts, use niche market devices and come up short when I ask you to match it feature to feature and spec to spec.


Again, those are using the built-in accelerometer. It could be argued that this is part of that system, but SMS as described by Apple is a means of protecting the hard drive.
Sudden Motion Sensor is not just for hard drives. There is a freaking API to access and control it. Please read up on it. The Accelerometer is part of the system which makes up the SMS. SMS was originally designed to shut off hard drives if sudden motion was detected (like a drop) and thus protect your data from physical damage of the hard disk. The fact that there is an API for it, means you can develop for it, and yes it is still part of the SMS. I have no idea why you are even trying to correct me on this.
 

realmike15

New Member
Hey everyone!
I have an old HP Paviliion laptop which is practically falling apart, and I need a replacement ASAP.
I just cannot seem to make up my mind on whether I should stick with a laptop that uses Windows or go for a MacBook instead?
I use a couple of photo editing tools: Photoshop, Lightroom, Photomax Pro and of course EOS Utility to transfer the photos from my camera (an EOS 400D) What are your experiences with MacBooks when it comes to photo editing?
And with MacBooks in general?

Cheers,

B
I didn't read the things everyone else said. But let try and give you a completely unbiased look at the comparison. I own a MacBook Pro as well as a Custom Build PC which I've been building for years.

1. The MacBook Pro has a very nice sleek design. It looks nicer than probably any other laptop out there. The aluminum body looks really nice too, though can scratch easy.
2. You will sacrifice some performance buying a Mac, when comparing it to a PC @ the same price. I'm working in Aperture and wishing I had a more powerful video card, the 9400 is sort of slow. The new ones have a better card, so things might have improved. In the end, you will get more performance with your money buying a PC. Mac's markup is notoriously higher, and don't listen anyone who tells you different. I've put mac equivalents together for a Hack-in-Tosh system and my builds are always cheaper by $300-$1000.
3. Either OS system will work. Don't let anyone tell you Mac's OS is superior. I've actually had more app crashes on my Mac recently than my Windows 7 PC.
4. The multi-touch track pad on these MacBook's is fantasic. It's improved my productivity 10 fold.

That's the important stuff I can think of. It might sound like I'm favoring PC over Mac, but I'm not. I love my MacBook Pro, it's a beautiful machine. It's the $1,200 price tag that gets to me... for what this machine does $800 would have been more than reasonable and still given Apple quite a profit. Apple builds their machines in China just like everyone else, don't be fooled. It's really up to you, I choose to use Apple for it's beautiful design, clean user interface, and very portable design. The PC will of course give you better specs for the same price, but in an enclosure that is most likely to be a little bulkier and not as sleek.

Good luck. Try them both out and decide for yourself.
 

Geoff

VIP Member
Mac's markup is notoriously higher, and don't listen anyone who tells you different. I've put mac equivalents together for a Hack-in-Tosh system and my builds are always cheaper by $300-$1000.
I'll beat tlarkin here. When you put together builds, did the Hack-in-Tosh system include an IPS screen, backlit keyboard, light sensor, SMS sensor, or 7-10 hour battery?
 

tlarkin

VIP Member
I just went to newegg and selected some parameters for a PC laptop which would be comparable to a mac, and this is my screen shot results attached. OK the attachment looks like crap, let me host it and link it.

 

Attachments

realmike15

New Member
[-0MEGA-];1465933 said:
I'll beat tlarkin here. When you put together builds, did the Hack-in-Tosh system include an IPS screen, backlit keyboard, light sensor, SMS sensor, or 7-10 hour battery?
1. Currently iMac is the only Mac with an IPS display, and at the time I did the comparison they did not have them. Regardless you can pick up an IPS display for under $300 so it's really a moot point.

2. Backlit keyboard is only found on the MacBook Pro's, and you can get them on a number of computer that cost less than $1,200.

3. No SMS sensor

4. I think you missed my point entirely. I'm comparing MacBook's to other laptop companies. And I'm comparing the iMac and Mac Pro to desktops I could put together myself running hackintosh software. These are two very different situations.
 

realmike15

New Member
I just went to newegg and selected some parameters for a PC laptop which would be comparable to a mac, and this is my screen shot results attached. OK the attachment looks like crap, let me host it and link it.

I have no interest in getting into a long debate, I've done this more times than I can count... and more importantly I'm at work.

But since you want proof, here's a perfect example of a computer with mostly better parts all around, and about $1,000 cheaper than what Apple would charge me.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129021
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131191
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150357
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815124015
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151063
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117206
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146585
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136313
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823109156
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827249054

Let's not forget Apple gives you 3Gigs of RAM and a 640GB HDD in a $2,500 computer.... LOL

*edit* that's an old list. replace anything that's out of stock with it's current equivalent and you'll find it much cheaper. I'm not trying to make you feel bad if you own one, it's a nice machine. But you need to be realistic about the fact that you paid about $1,000 more than you would have for a PC equivalent.
 
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tlarkin

VIP Member
What the hell is this? We are strictly talking about laptops, and you cannot build an all in one and if you compare a mini you gotta compare it to a shuttle, but even shuttles are over twice the size of a Mini.

I think that all-in-one computers are a bit of a niche market, but if you look at any other all-in-one from any other company they don't even hold a stick to the iMac.

How is your point even valid? Plus, you cannot guarantee it will run better, and if you load windows on it you are already using more resources on just doing a default install. What does windows 7 require? 15 gigs of HD space? Plus your list is laughable. That power supply is a piece of shit, Apple uses good power supplies in their computers.
 

realmike15

New Member
What the hell is this? We are strictly talking about laptops, and you cannot build an all in one and if you compare a mini you gotta compare it to a shuttle, but even shuttles are over twice the size of a Mini.

I think that all-in-one computers are a bit of a niche market, but if you look at any other all-in-one from any other company they don't even hold a stick to the iMac.

How is your point even valid? Plus, you cannot guarantee it will run better, and if you load windows on it you are already using more resources on just doing a default install. What does windows 7 require? 15 gigs of HD space? Plus your list is laughable. That power supply is a piece of shit, Apple uses good power supplies in their computers.
The only thing laughable is your opinion. I'm at work and don't have the time to sit here and counter all the ridiculous things you've said, you're talking like a Mac fan boy.... and it's sad because I expected better from you.

When I get some time, I'll be more than happy to prove every claim you've made wrong. But for right now, I have work to do.

Way to disregard the very valid host of links I gave you, with nothing but your opinion. Come back with some proof or I'm done with this conversation.

Peace.
 

tlarkin

VIP Member
The only thing laughable is your opinion. I'm at work and don't have the time to sit here and counter all the ridiculous things you've said, you're talking like a Mac fan boy.... and it's sad because I expected better from you.

When I get some time, I'll be more than happy to prove every claim you've made wrong. But for right now, I have work to do.

Peace.
OK, bring your desktop build, and I will prove you wrong. I am not a fanboy, but I use unbiased facts when comparing a Mac to a PC. Your build, is like comparing a Honda (your build) to a Mercedes (a Mac), sure they may both have 4 cylinder engines and get similar gas mileage but the Mercedes has a total different concept of engineering.

You see, I have plenty of problems and criticisms of the Macintosh Platform, but I never get to express them because of people like you that can't grasp the concept if you are going to compare a PC to a Mac (which not even really technically 100% comparable) you must ensure that the PC has every feature and spec that a Mac does.

Not everyone follows Apple's business model when designing their computers they sell to businesses and consumers, while some do. Lenovo, Acer, and HP all have their own version of the Sudden Motion Sensor (which they all call it something different), however, it is not standard on every PC laptop.

So go ahead build your PC and I will prove you wrong, just like I prove everyone wrong on this forum who try to argue that Macs are over priced. You get what you pay for. If you don't want a mac then don't buy it, but that still does not mean they are over priced.

They also have a 22% consumer market share in the USA now, so obviously people are buying them. If you must know, I manage both Macs and PCs for a living, have a Mac desktop and 2 custom built PCs at home as well as a macbook pro. I am hardly a 100% mac user.
 

speedyink

VIP Member
Then the PC you are talking about is not comparable and the Mac is still not over priced. Which is the whole debate I am getting at.

I know you hate apple, and that is your opinion, and you are one of the few people that have actually used one for a short period of time. So I do take what you say better than what most people say here.
When did i say that they were over priced? I'm just saying i don't need all the extra crap they come with, so i can't justify spending the extra cash.

Also, i do dislike apple for certain things they do and i don't like some of their products, but i do agree that some of the stuff they make is good. Hell, i'm using osx right this second on my eee to listen to music.
 

tlarkin

VIP Member
When did i say that they were over priced? I'm just saying i don't need all the extra crap they come with, so i can't justify spending the extra cash.

Also, i do dislike apple for certain things they do and i don't like some of their products, but i do agree that some of the stuff they make is good. Hell, i'm using osx right this second on my eee to listen to music.
Just making a general statement, not towards you specifically
 

Drenlin

Active Member
Apple still designs every aspect. They don't make the Intel chipset either or the processor, Intel does. However, they engineer everything about their systems. Like I said earlier, there are only really like 5 actual major manufacturers in the world. Every computer component is made by them. That doesn't mean they use the same quality parts and that does not mean they all have the same quality engineering.
Apple still has high profit margins, dude. There's no getting around that fact, no matter how you look at it. Asus actually makes most of their stuff, in their own factories. They therefore must design just as many of their components as Apple.

Regardless, it is still a feature that would cost extra, so any PC comparison better have it, or better have the cost of an upgrade included when comparing it to a Mac. That is my whole point of why a Mac is not over priced.
Regardless is right...we shouldn't be arguing on the usefulness of a type of wifi. The rest of the conversation give TS both sides of the argument, but this...notsomuch. :(

This makes no sense, no laptop comes with any of that standard. Maybe the high end Sager laptops that have two hard drives in them, but those are meant for gaming and not a very practical laptop. By definition a laptop is a mobile computer, and battery life is suppose to last a long time. The only thing Apple has yet to adopt is bluray. That does suck for Apple customers. However, apple has HDMI out, which includes 7.1 audio, on every single computer they make. They also have optical audio out. Can support up to 8gigs of RAM, oh and they can also support 500gig SSD drives (if you want to drop $1500 on a 500gig SSD drive that is). Every laptop has a numpad, unless you are talking about a separate num pad on the side? Over clocking on the fly is the dumbest feature for a laptop, sorry not buying it.
Certain models of the G73 come with all of that standard. I can't find the one with the blu-ray drive, but this one has everything else:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834220704

Yes, I was talking about a separate numpad. No, overclocking is not a dumb feature. Not for this laptop's intended purpose.

I'm comparing this as a gaming rig because it was built for gamers. The G-series' full title is Republic of Gamers. I'm comparing it to a niche market because it was built for one.

What? That doesn't make any sense. OK, I will give you this. You are rendering a giant file in say Maya, OK, yeah it will render faster with i9, but the Macbook Pro has an i5 in it. I don't get where you get this 30% faster crap, plus Windows is the WORST operating system in the world when it comes to managing resources. It takes more memory and more CPU cycles to run Windows than it does any other OS. That is a fact.
I was comparing hardware, not software. The GPU alone on that thing has a TDP of 50 watts, and the whole system is over a hundred, I believe. I'd be surprised if the Macbook is half that. OS/X is the icing on the cake compared to that.

Although, since the Macbooks are all dual core, I'd be interested to see which one would actually win a cpu contest.

So you are comparing a small niche market? Your arguments are weak at best. Most laptop users don't game on their laptop. I sure as hell don't and I am a gamer. Most laptop users want mobility. Most laptop users who use their laptop professionally for their job (like me) want on the fly access to a mobile computer. So what does Apple do? They make a laptop for most users, not some niche market for gaming. Apple did sort of go into a niche with the Macbook Air and the iPad, but the iPad is not a laptop, and not comparable. You should compare that to eReaders and other touch screen devices. So, for you to meet the Macbook Pros extensive and impressive battery life your solution is to buy a second battery? Thus, raising the cost of the PC laptop you are comparing.
Again, yes, I'm comparing a niche market because it was built for a niche market. And yes...to raise battery life, a second battery would seem the most obvious solution, wouldn't it? That, or an external battery. Regardless, the Mac is built for battery life. It uses much the same design philosophy as netbooks, having small, fairly low-power components and a comparatively large battery. I don't see any gaming laptop ever competing against that.

It was a model that came with a triple license of software which is why I chose it over the other ones they were looking at. I actually tried getting them a Mac, but they wanted to save $200 by getting the Sony. It came with licenses for XP Pro, Vista and 7 business. It was right before 7 came out so if you bought it you got the free 7 upgrade my mailing something in to Sony. I chose that one because I knew XP was getting old, and I hated Vista and was hoping 7 would be leaps and bounds better. I have no clue if it was made of recycled stuff, and this was like maybe a year or even two years ago. Hard to gauge when that was.
Are you trying to venerate it or justify it? Personally I think having a recycled shell is a good thing.

Hold a cigarette lighter to plastic and then to aluminum, see which permanently deforms first.
Well of course aluminum holds up to heat better. However, it does not hold up so well to other types of wear. Exactly which ones depends on the plastic.


[*]You can't really use car analogies for computers either, but I get your point. If I were to buy a PC laptop today, I would go buy a Lenovo or an Asus, as I think they are good machines. My whole point the whole time in every thread though, is that you cannot compare the two, because you have to add so many extra features to the PC to make it comparable to the Macbook pro. Yes, it being 5lbs and under 1 inch thick are huge features. Most users want light weight and portable laptops. Some days I have several meetings across town in different locations. I don't want to haul around some heavy thick ass laptop, which battery only lasts 2 hours (meaning every time I relocate I gotta recharge) and it runs loud because of the massive cooling it needs. Take a loud computer into a meeting, people will get sick of you pretty quickly. You keep comparing everything to gamers. Gaming laptops have a niche market, and guess what, people don't typically buy gaming laptops for professional use. They buy Macs or they buy business class laptops, which are light weight, and have longer battery life. If you want to compare your Asus, you need to find one with in spec of the Mac, including size and weight. Then compare specs, and last price and adjust pricing for whatever features either lack over the other. This is what I do and I get called a fan boy because I try to make a non biased opinion on the comparison. Where as you don't use facts, use niche market devices and come up short when I ask you to match it feature to feature and spec to spec.
Again, this is a gaming laptop, and I'm not comparing it apples-to-apples. There aren't many manufacturers that have models out which follow the Macbook's design philosophy. My entire point is that it is of equal caliber, not of equal performance.

Sudden Motion Sensor is not just for hard drives. There is a freaking API to access and control it. Please read up on it. The Accelerometer is part of the system which makes up the SMS. SMS was originally designed to shut off hard drives if sudden motion was detected (like a drop) and thus protect your data from physical damage of the hard disk. The fact that there is an API for it, means you can develop for it, and yes it is still part of the SMS. I have no idea why you are even trying to correct me on this.
None of those programs disengage the hard drives, do they? Unless the term has been scaled back to simply identify the sensors associated with SMS, then those programs use, at best, only part of the described system. If that is the case, then I concede the point.
 
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tlarkin

VIP Member
This is more comparable for sure, not one of those sub $1,000 laptops which is what you linked in the previous thread. I think the last thread you linked a laptop that was $900 and tried comparing it to the 15" MBP.

This is more comparable, though there are some aspects that do not make it quite comparable. I'd agree that while comparable, not quite the same market.

As for the SMS thing, other companies have their own version of SMS, SMS is the hardware technology, the software (or firmware) that is coded for SMS turns the HD off and stops it from spinning. IBM/Lenovo, Acer, and HP are the only other companies that I know that boast such technologies in laptops, and they all call it something different.
 

tlarkin

VIP Member
Wait...huh? The one I was talking about initially is a $1200 G73 made for Best Buy:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Asus+-+...lack/9741729.p?id=1218165344675&skuId=9741729

Same thing, as the other one, but with less RAM, a lower spec screen and webcam, and I think no bluetooth. I can see why we were disagreeing if you thought I was talking about a sub $1k machine... :/
Yes, but that one is still not quite comparable. You would have to add features to it, and well it would need to drop an inch in size.
 

BettinaFJ

New Member
Oh, I'll reply to the thread all right. :p

Hi everyone.

Thank you all for a hot and hearty discussion.

I appreciate the fact that some of you actually took it seriously, and that you supported your arguments - and it was great that some valid arguments were finally provoked. (tlarkin, you rock for making this more than a fight between 'I like PCs better because they are cheap and never break' and 'I like Macs better because they rock' - Thank you!)

I'll probably look the thread over once more before making my final decision, though I think I know what I want already.

Cheers,

Bettina.
 

tlarkin

VIP Member
Hi everyone.

Thank you all for a hot and hearty discussion.

I appreciate the fact that some of you actually took it seriously, and that you supported your arguments - and it was great that some valid arguments were finally provoked. (tlarkin, you rock for making this more than a fight between 'I like PCs better because they are cheap and never break' and 'I like Macs better because they rock' - Thank you!)

I'll probably look the thread over once more before making my final decision, though I think I know what I want already.

Cheers,

Bettina.
Been a PC user for a very long time now (20ish years) and a Mac users for about 10 years, and I hate the argument that Macs are over priced. I never even brought up the resell value aspect. You can sell a Mac that is 1 year old for about 10 to 15% less than you paid for it. So you get more return on your investment.

It all comes down to personal opinion and preference on what you want to do and what you prefer. I can tell you though, there isn't much a PC can do that a Mac can't, especially since a Mac can run Windows if need be.

Let us know what you pick since we all put a lot of time in our geeky arguments on your thread!
 

Geoff

VIP Member
tlarkin, you would have a field day over on facepunch. There is a Mac vs PC thread and the arguments against Mac are even more juvenile. People are saying "Let's have a right click contest. PC wins." and "Mac's have over saturated screens and makes it hard to see fine detail".
 

BettinaFJ

New Member
Okay, my mind is made up.
I'm going Mac. Just need to talk to my bank about my savings account first. :)
Once more, thanks for all of your time and effort, I really appreciate it.

B.
 
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