Who makes the best laptop? Why?

realmike15

New Member
Yeah, well if you can back up what you are saying then do it. I am not flaming but simply disagreeing with you. I never said they are capped at 3Ghz, I said pushing clock speeds past the 3Ghz mark has serious over heating issues, which is why if you want to OC you got to invest in after market (aka not supported by the manufacturer) cooling. If clock speed were the end all be all, they would be focusing on faster clock speeds instead of multiple cores, multiple memory controllers, more cache, and more built in instruction sets. Since pumping pu the clock speed that high tends to have over heating issues on a generalization, the processor companies took a different route. You don't see a stock Intel or AMD come out of the box clocked at 5Ghz. When they started pushing the 3Ghz spectrum they ran into lots of over heating issues, and found that processors lasted a lot shorter in their life span.

You can design parts, choose what specs and what goes where and have them built. Not every company manufactures parts, only a hand full do. When I say Apple designs them, I mean that literally. They actually design them, then whoever makes them (LG in a lot of cases) makes them with their design. They aren't just sending specs to a company and saying, here whip something up for us. When you take apart an iMac you typically see the silk screen stamp of the company that manufactured the part. I can tell you from my work experience Hitachi and LG manufacture parts for pretty much every major company. They don't sit there and design the part for every company, they manufacture them based on the designs they are sent, with the specs specified by the company.

You have yet to counter my main points. I said spec for spec and feature for feature Apple computers are competitively priced. You simply said you could do this or you know for a FACT that I am wrong, yet you haven't cited any references or even attempted to discredit what I stated.

ECC RAM is ungodly expensive, especially when you buy it at high end spec. There are several levels of ECC RAM.

The fact that you think the i7 is on par with the Xeon tells me you don't grasp the differences in the products. Also, if that were true, then why in the hell would Intel still market and try to sell the Xeon at such a higher price?

The bottom line is, when it comes price for price versus pound for pound, Apple makes a product that is very competitive. I built my last PC last year and it cost me around 1100ish out of my pocket for everything, including a new 22" monitor. Sure, it was slightly better hardware spec wise than an iMac, but I did not have all the features an iMac has standard. Plus my desktop is not an all-in-one.

Computers these days are not just about hardware specs, they are also about features and benefits you get from the product.

Wow dude way to misquote me about a half-dozen times in your post. I'm not going to keep re-explaining my points which I made very clear and backed up with facts. If you wish to continue to make baseless claims or twist my words feel free, but my opinions on the matter are very clear. Everything in this post I have already retorted with well known facts. When you make statements like stock processors cannot be clocked past 3.0GHz without having serious overheating issues, it makes it impossible for me to take anything you say seriously. I suggest you head over to an OCer's forum and tell give them your opinions, they will be more than happy to prove you worng... I however do not wish to argue with someone who is obviously incredibly thick headed.
 

tlarkin

VIP Member
Wow dude way to misquote me about a half-dozen times in your post. I'm not going to keep re-explaining my points which I made very clear and backed up with facts. If you wish to continue to make baseless claims or twist my words feel free, but my opinions on the matter are very clear. Everything in this post I have already retorted with well known facts. When you make statements like stock processors cannot be clocked past 3.0GHz without having serious overheating issues, it makes it impossible for me to take anything you say seriously. I suggest you head over to an OCer's forum and tell give them your opinions, they will be more than happy to prove you worng... I however do not wish to argue with someone who is obviously incredibly thick headed.

You still aren't reading what I write. I simply said stock speeds, and you can't overclock a processor past the 3Ghz mark with out after market cooling for it to be stable. If you email Intel and ask them what speed their processors should run at, they will flat out tell you that they should run at stock speeds. Which not many are past the 3Ghz mark. I never said you couldn't, I said they don't design them that way. I have no need to go to an over clocking forum as I am well aware you can over clock them up to the 6Ghz mark. However, that doesn't mean they are designed to operate at that level, and my whole original and main point of that is, they are designed to run at/around the 3Ghz mark for that reason.

You also never used any facts, you just used your opinion. I used to have the same opinion of you. In fact I didn't like Macs for years. I took me about 5 or 6 years of supporting Macs to actually start to like them. Around OS X 10.2 I started to get into them, mainly because I was into Linux and they had full blown Unix under the hood. I never liked the classic OS and even though I was given my first mac in the 90s by my job so I could learn it at home, I hardly ever used it. I used it to learn how to support Mac and that was about it. My first boss made every IT guy both a PC and a Mac guy after our Mac guy quit one day. He got fed up with having to hunt down a Mac guy to work with us, so he just made every learn both. I am glad he did, but back then I wasn't too keen to the idea.

I also used to think you can always build a PC cheaper, and I thought it was double the computer for half the price. However, over the years I realized I was wrong. If you have to compare, you need to compare everything it does, every specification it has, all the benefits, the life cycle, and so forth. You can't simply compare CPU, RAM and GPU and call it a day. I am not even a fan boy either because I do not like how Apple does not have a mid range mid tower desktop. Your choices are mini, iMac or Mac Pro, and a Mac Pro is extreme over kill for me as I don't do any work that would use a full blown quad core xeon, let alone dual xeons. There are many differences in the product of a Xeon Vs an i7, and you are right that a Xeon is not really meant for your average user.

I still own and operate and build my own PCs. If I didn't like them I wouldn't spend my hard earned money on them every 2 to 3 years. However, being around both platforms for such a long time I can clearly see you can't honestly compare the two, but when you do the bottom line is Apple is very competitively priced for what you get. I could go into a dissertation and break it down, and give facts on each side. In fact I wrote a whole thread dedicated to the differences of the platforms and why they are what they are price range wise, and listed the features and the benefits.

http://www.computerforum.com/120762-macintosh-platform.html

If you read through that, I clearly outline why I think this way. If you wish to counter any of it post your thoughts in that thread I just linked. It is a long read as I have added a lot to it over the past year or two.
 

Mafian

New Member
Epic fail they are arguing over what best everyone has opinions... Asus is the best... mac isn't for a normal user.. macs are for people who do alot of graphics and are going to school for something..in my opinion a regular pc or laptop can do the same thing a mac does, its cheper and easier to use. Macs are hardly upgradable, and the only thing thats nice about them is their design...
 
I think the best laptop would be the Apple MacBook Pro because of the era we are in. Ten years ago I would of said one of the IBM or Dell laptops because you didn't need the visual graphics that you do need today. The Apple laptops handle this area very well especially people who are online a lot doing web development, CAD programs, etc. Not only is the screen much clearer it processes the graphics much quicker than any other laptop out there.
 

tlarkin

VIP Member
Epic fail they are arguing over what best everyone has opinions... Asus is the best... mac isn't for a normal user.. macs are for people who do alot of graphics and are going to school for something..in my opinion a regular pc or laptop can do the same thing a mac does, its cheper and easier to use. Macs are hardly upgradable, and the only thing thats nice about them is their design...

What in the heck are you talking about? Laptops aren't upgradeable really period, so that is a moot point.

Unix > Windows, that is pretty much a fact.
 

Drenlin

Active Member
What in the heck are you talking about? Laptops aren't upgradeable really period, so that is a moot point.

What in the heck are you talking about? Laptops allow upgrades to most any component that a desktop does, plus the battery, screen, and miniPCIe cards. Many don't allow a graphics card upgrade, but that's about it, and you can get around that with a Mobo upgrade. Someone as experienced as you should know this, lol.

edit: That's a heck of a first post...bringing back a 3-day old conversation by getting on a VIP's case. :p
 
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tlarkin

VIP Member
What in the heck are you talking about? Laptops allow upgrades to most any component that a desktop does, plus the battery, screen, and miniPCIe cards. Many don't allow a graphics card upgrade, but that's about it, and you can get around that with a Mobo upgrade. Someone as experienced as you should know this, lol.

edit: That's a heck of a first post...bringing back a 3-day old conversation by getting on a VIP's case. :p

You can't upgrade a laptop. There are many reasons why but I will list a few:

*Laptop parts are so expensive you are better off just buying a new one rather than upgrade anything.

* you can upgrade RAM and HD but that is about it

* good luck finding a laptop motherboard that isn't over $500 with a warranty that is using current technology

* you cannot upgrade the integrated systems in a laptop, it is all one piece under the hood for the most part.

* parts availability is tough, as most laptop manufacturers do not allow consumers to buy laptops parts directly from them. You have to buy from third party, or get it from a authorized warranty provider. Third party will mark up the price, and/or sell you used or refurbished parts.

My last point is, laptops are designed to be mobile machines. They are geared to use low power consumption. In some cases the processor will be soldered to the motherboard in some laptops and in other cases it will be a straight socket. If it is the latter and you can change out the processor and you decide to upgrade it, you can cause damage to your laptop or reduce functionality as it was designed to use that processor at that power level.

Otherwise unless you want to enlighten me, you really can't upgrade or build a laptop.
 

Drenlin

Active Member
I never said it was easy, and I agree that it's more expensive..smaller and more specified things generally are. That's just a money issue, though. The RAM and hard drive are definitely not the only things that are upgradable. True, some don't allow graphics cards or processors to be upgraded. The simple solution there is to not buy one of those if you plan to upgrade it. Other than that, as long as you upgrade to a part that is specified to be ok for your system, I don't see the problem. For example, I know that to upgrade the processor in me XPS M1210 from a T7200 to a T7400, I'd need to swap to the NR230 board because mine only supports a 2 gig processor.

Actually, I really am going to swap the board, because that one has a dedicated graphics card. (and I've fried my integrated one, lol) I'm also going to add a webcam at some point, which is actually a fairly cheap mod, and probably modify the heat sink when I get the new board because these have problems making contact with the GPU. I even thought about a touchscreen kit at one point but they don't make them in 12.1", or at least not for a 1280x800 screen.
 
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tlarkin

VIP Member
I never said it was easy, and I agree that it's more expensive..smaller and more specified things generally are. That's just a money issue, though. The RAM and hard drive are definitely not the only things that are upgradable. *editing*

Well, then prove it. Provide links with companies that allow you to buy a new upgraded motherboard and processor for your laptop. It really is not possible, and definitely 100% not practical.
 

Drenlin

Active Member
Edited that post.

Who says the board has to be from the manufacturer? Assuming you don't need a new motherboard for the processor, which I think would generally be the case, you could just buy the processor from an Intel/AMD retailer.

As far as the graphics card goes, mini pcie cards like these look pretty upgradable to me.

Even if the CPU and GPU are soldered on, you can still upgrade various other components.
 

tlarkin

VIP Member
Edited that post.

Who says the board has to be from the manufacturer? Assuming you don't need a new motherboard for the processor, which I think would generally be the case, you could just buy the processor from an Intel/AMD retailer.

As far as the graphics card goes, mini pcie cards like these look pretty upgradable to me.

Even if the CPU and GPU are soldered on, you can still upgrade various other components.

So, there are third party companies that make motherboards that fit into each model of laptop's chasis? You have to buy it from the manufacturer because there is no standard like ATX or BTX that laptops follow. They put screw holes and mount points where ever they feel is necessary.


Besides RAM and HD, can you give me specific examples of where I could upgrade my laptop?
 

Langers2k7

New Member
. That's just a money issue, though.

Just a money issue? Isn't that part of the point of building/maintaining your own PC, to save money?

I'm sorry but I have to agree with Tlark, there's no point whatsoever in upgrading a laptop, besides RAM upgrades.
 

Drenlin

Active Member
^ No, I agree...many times it isn't very practical to do something big. But not always. And unless I missed something we're not talking about building, we're talking about modifying an existing system. The point there is to get better performance, correct?

So, there are third party companies that make motherboards that fit into each model of laptop's chasis? You have to buy it from the manufacturer because there is no standard like ATX or BTX that laptops follow. They put screw holes and mount points where ever they feel is necessary.


Besides RAM and HD, can you give me specific examples of where I could upgrade my laptop?

I meant that, for example, even though I need a Dell M1210 mobo, I don't have to buy it from Dell.

Laptops usually do have mini PCIe slots. Mine has 2. I have a bluetooth/WLAN card in one, and could get a WWAN or SSD card to go in the other. I could also upgrade my current card to a wireless N one.

Sometimes it depends on the laptop, as well. For example, I didn't buy mine with a camera. I can swap out the top part of my case for one with a camera, for not a lot of cash.
 
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tlarkin

VIP Member
^ No, I agree...many times it isn't very practical to do something big. But not always. And unless I missed something we're not talking about building, we're talking about modifying an existing system. The point there is to get better performance, correct?



I meant that, for example, even though I need a Dell M1210 mobo, I don't have to buy it from Dell.

Laptops usually do have mini PCIe slots. Mine has 2. I have a bluetooth/WLAN card in one, and could get a WWAN or SSD card to go in the other. I could also upgrade my current card to a wireless N one.

Sometimes it depends on the laptop, as well. For example, I didn't buy mine with a camera. I can swap out the top part of my case for one with a camera, for not a lot of cash.


The only way you can really upgrade a laptop is by purchasing external peripherals. If you upgrade your processor, and it is same socket but a faster bus speed, it is pointless unless you upgrade the motherboard and the RAM to match that increased bus speed.

Plus you are probably going to consume more power which can cause both damage and lessen functionality.

Next try to fix an after market motherboard in your laptop. Since there are no standards and everyone designs their laptops different, they don't exist. You have to buy the motherboard from the manufacturer.

Bottom line: Laptops are not really upgradeable, unless you add tons of external devices.

See my comment about purchasing it from third party, I already covered that.
 

Drenlin

Active Member
Bottom line: Laptops are not really upgradeable, unless you add tons of external devices.

Other than the fact that you've completely overlooked the PCIe cards, I think this has boiled down to differing opinions. Shall we move on?

I do like the build quality of Macbooks, but I really dislike Mac as a company. They tend to charge way too much for the name, banking on the fact that either people are elitist about them, or that they genuinely think that the larger price and big brand name gets them more than a logo. They are good computers, but I really would not consider them to be the best.
 
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tlarkin

VIP Member
Other than the fact that you've completely overlooked the PCIe cards, I think this has boiled down to differing opinions. Shall we move on?

I do like the build quality of Macbooks, but I really dislike Mac as a company. They tend to charge way too much for the name, banking on the fact that either people are elitist about them, or that they genuinely think that the larger price and big brand name gets them more than a logo. They are good computers, but I really would not consider them to be the best.

That is hardly an upgrade, because you can buy most of that stuff in external form via FW or USB2. Plus even the mini PCI slots in laptops do not follow standards. I have had issues with them supplying enough power to add on cards in the past. Not to mention the limited amount of hardware that comes in that form as well.
 
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Jet

VIP Member
I do like the build quality of Macbooks, but I really dislike Mac as a company. They tend to charge way too much for the name, banking on the fact that either people are elitist about them, or that they genuinely think that the larger price and big brand name gets them more than a logo. They are good computers, but I really would not consider them to be the best.

Quality costs money. Once you experience quality, you truly are spoiled rotten and have a very hard time accepting so-so products.
 

tlarkin

VIP Member
I do like the build quality of Macbooks, but I really dislike Mac as a company. They tend to charge way too much for the name, banking on the fact that either people are elitist about them, or that they genuinely think that the larger price and big brand name gets them more than a logo. They are good computers, but I really would not consider them to be the best.

You are contradicting yourself here. You call them quality builds, but then say Apple just flaunts their name and charges a premium for their name stamp on the product.

let me explain it to you this way. You can go out and buy a KIA, and the KIA will be comparable to a Honda spec for spec. The Honda will be of sightly higher quality. They will both go 80MPH, and they will both get you from point A to point B every day. However, it is a no contest that the Honda is just a higher quality car. The Honda will cost a lot more than the KIA and the Honda will also have a higher resell value. This is because of Honda's business model. They build up their product slowly and surely and they test it over and over again which is why Hondas as a car run forever. Just like a Mac.

Look at total cost of ownership. I have a 5 year old G5 at home with dual 2.5Ghz PPC processors, 3 or 4 Gigs of RAM (I can't recall off the top of my head) and like I dunno, 500 to 700 gigs of HD space. It also has a nvidia 6800 DDL video card in it. If Apple had not dropped PPC support I guarantee that Mac would still run Snow Leopard, and run it well. What 5 to 6 year old PC can run Vista or Windows 7, and at a decent rate?
 
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