Buying Advice For Mac?

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plutoniumman

New Member
When I say mac is slightly different than PC (hardware-wise), is because it really is. Example, macs don’t have a BIOS, not even a BIOS chip (Or CMOS). They have different power management system than PCs. In mac the PMU controls almost everything, where as in PC, its power management systems usually just control the big power consumers, like HDD, optics, handle battery charge, etc. (PMU is kinda like CMOS for mac, as strange as it may sound...)

That’s just a few of the subsytems/differences I can think of between mac and PC. I don’t imagine there are a whole lot more. If all you do is install windows/OS X on it, you’d never know there’s any actual difference from mac or PC. And unless you plan on programming an OS for it or something, it doesn’t really matter a whole lot what’s going on under the hood — just as long as it’s understood there actually is a physical hardware difference. Not that it’s important...
 

lucasbytegenius

Well-Known Member
When I say mac is slightly different than PC (hardware-wise), is because it really is. Example, macs don’t have a BIOS, not even a BIOS chip (Or CMOS). They have different power management system than PCs. In mac the PMU controls almost everything, where as in PC, its power management systems usually just control the big power consumers, like HDD, optics, handle battery charge, etc. (PMU is kinda like CMOS for mac, as strange as it may sound...)

That’s just a few of the subsytems/differences I can think of between mac and PC. I don’t imagine there are a whole lot more. If all you do is install windows/OS X on it, you’d never know there’s any actual difference from mac or PC. And unless you plan on programming an OS for it or something, it doesn’t really matter a whole lot what’s going on under the hood — just as long as it’s understood there actually is a physical hardware difference. Not that it’s important...

The Mac has what's called EFI instead of a BIOS. Just to expand on your post.
 

Okedokey

Well-Known Member
just as long as it’s understood there actually is a physical hardware difference. Not that it’s important...

You can buy motherboards with EFI for a PC. The point is as you rightly pointed out, all the difference is to the consumer between a MAC and a PC is the OS, thus, why pay so much more for the same performance? You don't unless you're a fool.
 

Ethan3.14159

Active Member
You can buy motherboards with EFI for a PC. The point is as you rightly pointed out, all the difference is to the consumer between a MAC and a PC is the OS, thus, why pay so much more for the same performance? You don't unless you're a fool.
Hardware-wise, yes PC's and Mac's are nearly identical, but OS X manages the hardware in a completely different, and more efficient way. There is a reason why a 5-year old Macbook Pro laptop is going to be noticeably faster then a similarly spec'd 5-year old Windows laptop.

You can pile on the high-end hardware, but if the OS manages it poorly it makes no difference. People don't usually consider total cost of ownership, after sales service, user experience, etc. I guess that's why Windows fans only look at the spec sheet when comparing products.
 

Okedokey

Well-Known Member
You are forgetting however that Macs dont do what PCs can. I cant use a lot of my software on a mac, nor game, nor use MS CRM and the list goes on. Not to mention the very poor and in most cases non-existent IT support from thrid party organisations such as ISPs.

You cannot compare them, they're not the same. Also most TCO analysis doesn't factor in the learning curve most people would need to do to become as proficient in using a mac. This, is a major major cost to a business. A lot of staff would need training or suffer large downtime. Not costed in most TCOs

Plus, I game, and sorry, but Macs completely fail at this.

Also please show me empirical data where Mac OS handles hardware more efficiently. Most information i have seen shows Windows 7 trouncing Mac OS.
 
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Doctor Varney

New Member
It was a joke lol :D

I know - and I laughed :lol: :D. Though it has to be said: the real Mac adverts are stupid IMO. It's faintly possible the reason we don't see them here in England, is because it's considered 'unprofessional' and 'unbusinesslike' to run down another product while plugging your own.

The idea is for the 'cool people' to identify with Mr. Mac in his casuals and see Mr. PC as the poor unfortunate geek. This form of rhetorical advertising relies on Pathos and heroism and frankly doesn't wash for anyone familiar with these products. I should say it's aimed at first time buyers who have never actually used a computer.

If the characters were more accurate (to most cases), we'd see the PC as several different characters in one, with the Mac being confined mainly to just the one.

The first that springs to mind is Mr PC. being a rather earthy, beard 'n' sandals type, wearing a lot of worn out denim, possibly with a heavily customised motorcycle and carrying with him a lot of personal hardware - dictaphone, mobile phone, personal PDA ect... while Mr. Mac seems to have everything sewn up into one single device, which is stylish and easy to use - such as the Apple i-phone. He'd probably be dressed in a straight laced fashion and appear to all the world as someone's modern dad.

While Mr. Mac drives a 'Smart Car', we'd see Mr. PC driving a genuine 4x4. Sure, he'd get a lot more punctures but he'd have had more adventures out off the beaten track, while Mr. Mac is confined to the smooth roads.

When it came to servicing their vehicles, we'd see Mr. PC's legs protruding from underneath with the bonnet open - able to fix most problems with his extensive collection of tools... while Mr. Mac would need to phone for a mechanic or Smart Car specialist, just to top up the windscreen wash.

Overall, Mr. Mac would spend more time on the road - going places and meeting his equally 'right-on' friends - but Mr. PC would, on the whole, be much more proficient at fixing and modifying his jeep and know more about advanced driving over rough terrain.

This might have appealed more to me but, it might also NOT fit with how others see the situation. The point is, if I had only these adverts to rely on to guide me, I would probably never consider a Mac.... because, as it stands, I'm not LIKE Mr. PC and and I don't LIKE Mr. Mac. Actually, I just feel like I want to smack him across the face, making his smug grin appear on the other side of it. I just don't happen to identify with either of these pricks.

So it's all about perceptions. There's far more going on in this thread in the way of intelligent comparrisons, by people who actually use the things.

Dr. V
 
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Doctor Varney

New Member
^ overthinking it mate....



And that is bollocks too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfqgK7izc4g

Er... are you sure that's a commercial and not just a comedy sketch, by two well-known British comics? Because, I've never seen this one come up in a TV commercial break.

EDIT: I just looked it up. You're right! So what else do you consider 'bollocks'... too?

Anyway, I wasn't overthinking anything. It's just something that has always occurred to me. As a PC enthusiast, I'm surprised you didn't appreciate it. Keep it friendly at any rate, please... 'mate'. ;)

Dr. V
 
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Doctor Varney

New Member
You cannot compare them, they're not the same. Also most TCO analysis doesn't factor in the learning curve most people would need to do to become as proficient in using a mac. This, is a major major cost to a business. A lot of staff would need training or suffer large downtime. Not costed in most TCOs

As it happens, most of the colleges and professional businesses around me, were already using Macs right from the beginning of the IT era. Two graphic designers I know own Macs for home use. When I asked why, it just never occurred to them to buy PCs because they were trained on Macs, they use Macs at work and that's all they knew. His Mac crashed while he was showing me something... So does my PC...

bigfella said:
Plus, I game, and sorry, but Macs completely fail at this.

As I've said, repeatedly... I don't. I would never even try to contradict this because all the info I've gathered seems to say that Macs don't game. AFAIK, not because they can't - but because most games aren't published for the platform. But you know, trends change. It so happens (so I've been told) that PCs now have the edge over Macs where Photoshop and DTP applications are concerned. If so, then perhaps the tables are turning on that one? Maybe this is just old news to you... My graphic designer friends may well be unaware of this. I've not heard anything about it since.

Also please show me empirical data where Mac OS handles hardware more efficiently. Most information i have seen shows Windows 7 trouncing Mac OS.

If I had empirical evidence to show one works better than the other, I probably wouldn't have started this thread. :D

(Sorry if that was not aimed at me... LOL).

Dr. V
 
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FuryRosewood

Active Member
Mac Pro's run server grade components, and cant be compared to desktop counterparts, unless you plan on grabbing a socket 1366 board and putting a xeon processor...sure compare that to a server. You get what you pay for, you will end up spending *about* the same on a desktop with a server processor, board and ram as you would a PC, also take into effect that software is often provided by Apple for basic things, and is not in the side of the PC market, you get the OS, and then nothing, you will have to hunt for stuff to do what you want to.

What it comes down to, you are paying for design and components that are being selectively picked that will work together, for the most part, effectively, whereas with the PC market, you are on your own, you may get stuck in a corner with a compatibility issue.

(i dont endorse Mac, i build pcs, but eh, thats what their doing.)
 

Doctor Varney

New Member
Mac Pro's run server grade components, and cant be compared to desktop counterparts, unless you plan on grabbing a socket 1366 board and putting a xeon processor...sure compare that to a server. You get what you pay for, you will end up spending *about* the same on a desktop with a server processor, board and ram as you would a PC, also take into effect that software is often provided by Apple for basic things, and is not in the side of the PC market, you get the OS, and then nothing, you will have to hunt for stuff to do what you want to.

What it comes down to, you are paying for design and components that are being selectively picked that will work together, for the most part, effectively, whereas with the PC market, you are on your own, you may get stuck in a corner with a compatibility issue.

(i dont endorse Mac, i build pcs, but eh, thats what their doing.)

Thank you. Sensible advice (at last!).

When I switch my PC on, it sometimes says: "Keyboard error or no keyboard present. Press F1 to continue or delete to enter set-up".

If that's not the stupidest thing ever said by a computer... How am I supposed to press anything, if there's no keyboard? Stupid. Just plain stupid.

These things are not good computers. People with PCs have them break down far more often than people with Macs. This is direct experience here... not statistics. Me - and everyone I know. Hands up if there's anyone here who has never had a PC break down catastrophically on them or at least offer stupid messages which mean nothing and ask you to click "OK" to things that really are just NOT "OK", making the whole machine basically useless.

When I built this machine, it was 'cutting edge'. Now I would probably get more for it in scrap metal than as a computer.

I heard Macs keep their value.

I would rather - much rather stick with PCs... I don't really want to buy a Mac - but it's just not economical any more to keep messing with these PCs. Just to get any semblance of stability, I keep having to rip parts out and replace them. I connect hardware - there's some kind of problem. I install drivers and software - there's some kind of problem. I can't work with this crap.

Alternatively, how can I build a PC which will be as reliable as people say their Macs are? What would I have to buy? Where should I shop for parts? What about OEM? Who is decent? I don't trust Dell or HP Compaq. So what's the answer?

Dr. V
 
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Dystopia

Active Member
This has probably been said already...however, your friend is incorrect when saying Macs don't get viruses. While the OS on a Mac IS indeed more secure, it will still get viruses. One of the reasons Macs do not get viruses as often as PCs is because the hackers writing the viruses are not targeting the Macs as often as they do the PCs...simply due to the fact that there are way more PCs than Macs.

If you plan on gaming on the Mac, be prepared to be disappointed.

Also be ready to shell out $1000 for a Mac with same/similar specs for a $500-700 PC.

I'm not saying Macs are bad. They are built better than PCs, the hardware is all tested, for each computer. There is a reason Apple charges more for their computers.
 

Doctor Varney

New Member
If you plan on gaming on the Mac, be prepared to be disappointed.

I have a console for gaming. Where games belong.

I planned to work with my PC. I'm already disappointed. Over and over... As far as being prepared goes, well, you kind of become resigned to it.

This has probably been said already...however, your friend is incorrect when saying Macs don't get viruses. While the OS on a Mac IS indeed more secure, it will still get viruses. One of the reasons Macs do not get viruses as often as PCs is because the hackers writing the viruses are not targeting the Macs as often as they do the PCs...simply due to the fact that there are way more PCs than Macs.

Oh, I'm aware now - and I expect it to get worse as the number of Macs increases... but surely it has to be an improvement over the PC situation?

I'm not saying Macs are bad. They are built better than PCs, the hardware is all tested, for each computer. There is a reason Apple charges more for their computers.

Thank you. Is that the reason they charge more? I've lost money due to downtime with the PC. If individual testing and gauranteed compatibility is what you get for your money, then it hardly sounds like a bad deal! Actually - I expect that with any tool I buy for my workshop.

Also, I've heard it ships with software, which you don't get with the PC and isn't the OS inclusive in the price with the Mac? Whereas, you still have to purchase Windows on top of that $700 spend. Yes, I suppose i-life sounds a bit pedestrian but then what I have downloaded for the PC is mostly unstable rubbish and has to be promptly uninstalled (or patched in order to work) anyway. Can't see how it could get much worse.

I haven't decided yet. I'm still considering Windows 7. I don't hold out too much hope for it, considering all the broken promises of XP... but we'll see. That would certainly save money in the short term - and I'm open minded. So the jury's still out...

Dr. V
 
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Okedokey

Well-Known Member
Firstly, that wasn't a comedy routine, but an Apple ad on television.

Secondly I wasn't talking to you regarding gaming.

Thirdly, if you are so convinced, why start this thread?

Fourth, PC makes up over 90% of the business market, thus the problem with trying to get technical support for third party software.\

The simple fact is that there is nothing a mac can do that a PC cant, but plenty a PC can do that a mac cant (read software compatiability).

Also, don't try and upgrade a mac, you wont be able too, at least not for anything other than massive markups, remember, Apple is a hardware company.
 
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Doctor Varney

New Member
Thirdly, if you are so convinced, why start this thread?

Who ever said I was convinced? I certainly wasn't when I started it and not fully now, either.

There are nicer ways of saying "You're wrong" or "I don't agree" than "Bollocks".

You must be somewhat interested in the subject or you would be here yourself. You also wouldn't have bothered to discover anything about Macintosh Computers. Which is what I'm doing here. Question is, how much do you actually know first hand, from buying or using one? I don't have that experience yet. But in learning, everyone has to start somewhere.

Thanks for your info. I'll bear it in mind, as I make the decision.

Dr. V
 
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Dystopia

Active Member
I have a console for gaming. Where games belong.

I planned to work with my PC. I'm already disappointed. Over and over... As far as being prepared goes, well, you kind of become resigned to it.



Oh, I'm aware now - and I expect it to get worse as the number of Macs increases... but surely it has to be an improvement over the PC situation?



Thank you. Is that the reason they charge more? I've lost money due to downtime with the PC. If individual testing and gauranteed compatibility is what you get for your money, then it hardly sounds like a bad deal! Actually - I expect that with any tool I buy for my workshop.

Also, I've heard it ships with software, which you don't get with the PC and isn't the OS inclusive in the price with the Mac? Whereas, you still have to purchase Windows on top of that $700 spend. Yes, I suppose i-life sounds a bit pedestrian but then what I have downloaded for the PC is mostly unstable rubbish and has to be promptly uninstalled (or patched in order to work) anyway. Can't see how it could get much worse.

I haven't decided yet. I'm still considering Windows 7. I don't hold out too much hope for it, considering all the broken promises of XP... but we'll see. That would certainly save money in the short term - and I'm open minded. So the jury's still out...

Dr. V

:eek: Blasphemy! :p

Yes, right now it is an improvement.

It's one of the reasons. Another reason is the name. They built themselves a rep and a lot of people have the OMG APPLE IS DA SHIT attitude and people owning a Mac think a Mac is better than a PC period. It really boils down to preference, and what you use the computer for.

There is some software that ships with Macs, yes, but it isn't like you get the equivalent to Microsoft Office for free or anything. Also, when buying a computer in the store, it almost ALWAYS comes with an OS. In fact, I have yet to find a computer sold in a store without one. Building a PC is different.

There is another thing...you cannot build your own Mac the way you build a PC. As bigfella said, upgrading is practically impossible.

And, again, as bigfella said, there is less compatible software for a Mac than windows. For the same reason there are less viruses. Make sure you have a proper substitute for whatever you use on a PC that will work well on a Mac.

Windows 7 is fantastic. I have Vista Ultimate, and rather like it, aside from the fact that I get the occasional IRQL_DRIVER_NOT_EQUAL_OR_LESS due to a driver error, which I believe lies with the bluetooth. But 7 is even better than Vista. And Vista is a huge improvement over XP.

Vista and 7 are both less vulnerable to viruses than XP was. If you are running XP, I recommend you try 7 before making a decision. The new security features are sometimes cumbersome, but can be very effective when used properly.

One of the reasons you may have had issues with your PCs in the past is configuration. For example, I have my computer set up to the point where when I recently did a full system scan for viruses/malware, all that was infected was one file, which was a tracking cookie. On the other and, my parents get viruses on a regular bases. The way I use my computer, knowing which sites to avoid, knowing not to download drivers from say 'Joes Driver Shack', and things like that keep my computer fairly secure.

Errors and system crashes can often be due to faulty hardware or software. The best way to avoid such issues is to build your own PC, where you can pick out quality parts. And when getting software, make sure you don't download a random file. Recently, my dad downloaded a FLV play
 

Dystopia

Active Member
I have a console for gaming. Where games belong.

I planned to work with my PC. I'm already disappointed. Over and over... As far as being prepared goes, well, you kind of become resigned to it.



Oh, I'm aware now - and I expect it to get worse as the number of Macs increases... but surely it has to be an improvement over the PC situation?



Thank you. Is that the reason they charge more? I've lost money due to downtime with the PC. If individual testing and gauranteed compatibility is what you get for your money, then it hardly sounds like a bad deal! Actually - I expect that with any tool I buy for my workshop.

Also, I've heard it ships with software, which you don't get with the PC and isn't the OS inclusive in the price with the Mac? Whereas, you still have to purchase Windows on top of that $700 spend. Yes, I suppose i-life sounds a bit pedestrian but then what I have downloaded for the PC is mostly unstable rubbish and has to be promptly uninstalled (or patched in order to work) anyway. Can't see how it could get much worse.

I haven't decided yet. I'm still considering Windows 7. I don't hold out too much hope for it, considering all the broken promises of XP... but we'll see. That would certainly save money in the short term - and I'm open minded. So the jury's still out...

Dr. V

:eek: Blasphemy! :p

Yes, right now it is an improvement.

It's one of the reasons. Another reason is the name. They built themselves a rep and a lot of people have the OMG APPLE IS DA SHIT attitude and people owning a Mac think a Mac is better than a PC period. It really boils down to preference, and what you use the computer for.

There is some software that ships with Macs, yes, but it isn't like you get the equivalent to Microsoft Office for free or anything. Also, when buying a computer in the store, it almost ALWAYS comes with an OS. In fact, I have yet to find a computer sold in a store without one. Building a PC is different.

There is another thing...you cannot build your own Mac the way you build a PC. As bigfella said, upgrading is practically impossible.

And, again, as bigfella said, there is less compatible software for a Mac than windows. For the same reason there are less viruses. Make sure you have a proper substitute for whatever you use on a PC that will work well on a Mac.

Windows 7 is fantastic. I have Vista Ultimate, and rather like it, aside from the fact that I get the occasional IRQL_DRIVER_NOT_EQUAL_OR_LESS due to a driver error, which I believe lies with the bluetooth. But 7 is even better than Vista. And Vista is a huge improvement over XP.

Vista and 7 are both less vulnerable to viruses than XP was. If you are running XP, I recommend you try 7 before making a decision. The new security features are sometimes cumbersome, but can be very effective when used properly.

One of the reasons you may have had issues with your PCs in the past is configuration. For example, I have my computer set up to the point where when I recently did a full system scan for viruses/malware, all that was infected was one file, which was a tracking cookie. On the other and, my parents get viruses on a regular bases. The way I use my computer, knowing which sites to avoid, knowing not to download drivers from say 'Joes Driver Shack', and things like that keep my computer fairly secure.

Errors and system crashes can often be due to faulty hardware or software. The best way to avoid such issues is to build your own PC, where you can pick out quality parts. And when getting software, make sure you don't download a random file. Recently, my dad downloaded a FLV player, multiple in fact. He just downloaded random programs. His AV program caught them both as viruses, but my dad installed one anyway, thinking, perhaps the AV program is wrong. Well, his computer was screwed, literally. Had he known what to search for, and what sites to download from, this would not have happened.

Do you see what I am getting at? A lot of computer errors are user errors.
 

Demilich

New Member
While the OS on a Mac IS indeed more secure, it will still get viruses. One of the reasons Macs do not get viruses as often as PCs is because the hackers writing the viruses are not targeting the Macs as often as they do the PCs...simply due to the fact that there are way more PCs than Macs.

If you plan on gaming on the Mac, be prepared to be disappointed.

Also be ready to shell out $1000 for a Mac with same/similar specs for a $500-700 PC.

I'm not saying Macs are bad. They are built better than PCs, the hardware is all tested, for each computer. There is a reason Apple charges more for their computers.

I apologize, however, I could not help but dog you a little here, because there are contradictions, and opinions that you're attempting to pass as facts. First, stating "While the OS on a Mac IS indeed more secure" is an opinion. The only time quoting something is safer is with cars, when we crash them, and experts give each car ratings based on their crash test. But we're not crashing computers into walls at 60MPH, and there is no efficient method of proving that a Mac is safer than a PC. Also you answered your own question, that I already posted earlier, by the way, of why PC's get more viruses than Mac's. And obviously, because PC's make up ~90% of the market share.

Second, if Mac's are "built better than PC's", please elaborate on why Mac's can't "play games". I have a feeling that statement is crap, because Macs are built just as any computer is built. On an assembly line. If Mac uses superior techniques to PC manufacturers, then why can't Mac's apparently play games? Does Mac test each and everyone of their computers for functionality? I don't know, and I don't think you do, either. IF Mac is able to test each and everyone of their computers, as you say, it wont last long, if they wish to make money and expand. Because as Mac grows, there will be a point where testing each and every Mac will be time consuming, and money wasting, because labor would be through the roof, and well, it just wouldn't work. Mac would be behind in getting their Mac's out in an orderly fashion, and fast enough for peeps to buy them. Why do you think they have 30 day manufacturer warranties, and then limited 1 year warranties for PC's? Think about it. It's not that simple. I think Mac is at all "popular" because of those false advertisements you posted. Mac is simply good at creating the illusion that their "stuff" don't stink, as they say. Which is of course fair play, and I have to say they are exceptionally well at doing it.
 
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Dystopia

Active Member
I apologize, however, I could not help but dog you a little here, because there are contradictions, and opinions that you're attempting to pass as facts. First, stating "While the OS on a Mac IS indeed more secure" is an opinion. The only time quoting something is safer is with cars, when we crash them, and experts give each car ratings based on their crash test. But we're not crashing computers into walls at 60MPH, and there is no efficient method of proving that a Mac is safer than a PC. Also you answered your own question, that I already posted earlier, by the way, of why PC's get more viruses than Mac's. And obviously, because PC's make up ~90% of the market share.

Second, if Mac's are "built better than PC's", please elaborate on why Mac's can't "play games". I have a feeling that statement is crap, because Macs are built just as any computer is built. On an assembly line. Does Mac test each and everyone of their computers for functionality? I don't know, and I don't think you do, either. IF Mac is able to test each and everyone of their computers, as you say, it wont last long, if they wish to make money. Because as Mac grows, there will be a point where testing each and every Mac will be time consuming, and money wasting, because labor would be through the roof, and well, it just wouldn't work. Mac would be behind in getting their Mac's out in an orderly fashion, and fast enough for peeps to buy them. Why do you think they have 30 day manufacturer warranties, and then limited 1 year warranties for PC's? Think about it. It's not that simple. I think Mac is at all "popular" because of those false advertisements you posted.

Yes, that's pretty much what I go on to say...due to the fact that there are so many more PCs, more hackers write viruses for the PCs, that is the bigger target, easier target.

The built better does not come from specs. My Dell XPS is of better quality than a cheaper computer of the same specs. My XPS would also cost more. When you examine the case of the average PC, it is usually quite cheap. Not always, but often. If I built myself a PC, and my parents bought a computer from the store, both had the same specs, I can almost guarantee that my computer will be better. The Macs are not. The material used is of higher quality. I do not remember if Apple tests ALL the hardware or not, but I am thinking they do. They also test the PARTS, I do not know about the computers, that I agree would be impractical. That is also one of the reasons they can charge more. If you think about it, people buy less of the Macs partially because they cost more...this gives Apple more time. Like you said, PCs hold 90% of the market share.

Also, you should know that I am not coming up with this, or just have that opinion. I learned this recently from my instructor who has been in IT for 20 odd years.

I am also not giving false advertisements. I am listing cons and pros. My personal opinion on Macs are that they are a luxury. They often look fancier, (externally) sleeker.
 
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